Response to threat

[ACT]

Guys,

I've been mulling this one over for the last couple of weeks or so.

When the frequency of attacks increases and gets to a ridiculous level, what action do we take?

Option 1.
Do we start to be more pro active and start to go in hard and risk the bandits upping the anti also by being more violent and using firearms.

Option2.
Do we carry on as we are and hope that the bandits have stolen enough money to live off to retire.

Option 3.
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Come on guys get your thinking caps on.

This isn't just a CVIT question but a general security industry dilemma that we all face.

As I have put it in the past, it's like the school bully taking your dinner money off you, do you give to him for a quiet life, or do you give him something to think about?

Your input on this one will be of great interest to me.

ACT

[Lietuvis]

what goes to bully, well pick up biggest heaviest chair in the room and let him taste it..
==============

If it would be lets say Lithuania, i would say shoot them .
When it comes to Britain/Ireland , give whatever you can to stay safe as if you will touch criminal you will go to jail for defending yourself and attacking him...

Security guard must take REASONABLE actions to stop crime in progress.. Reasonable is call 911 or whatever is the emergency number in your area...
You cant even carry firearms or handcuffs here so what can you do... Especcialy if you have a child whaiting at home? Huh?

Im lonely no family no pet , no nothing... So probably i would pick heaviest thing i could find and use it, even a torch (Some may be used as weapons )
It also heavily depends on where and with hoom you work...

But i would say , if you are trained - trained very well , then ACT , you may never know maybe after robbing you he(criminal) will go and kill someone, so you may save life..

[mickworldwide]

Hi ACT

The question really depends on the resources that you have to hand.

Like the school bully problem you describe, parents and others used to always say the school bully will go away if you hit him back.... I will go on record to say this is bollocks ... I tried that once when I was a very small nipper and got my pie knocked in .... so in response to that I asked my bigger , older cousin to square it for me ... which he did!!!

Back to the point mate, depending on the region and the resources at hand, do you have the fire power, manpower and will the actions lead to a violent reaction that is not equal to the task you are undertaking.

What other agencies can you call to bolster your teams or perform extra support / proactive actions?? I am unaware of the situation but I am assuming you are not talking about a UK problem here... Can you rely on the MIl or Bill to assist ?

Can you avoid the problem?? change timings , routes , vehicles , SOPs to negate the threat via avoidance? Can you seek a change in the patterns etc from the client? Is the task necessary in the first place , does it pose a greater risk to perform or can you go to lock down til the problem passes?? All very relevant. If it is mission essential tasks , would you be able to create heavy teams to put the bandits off , what is their MO??? Would throwing more manpower put more men at risk (IED or small arms?) or would it make the enemy think twice??

Would performing SD on the area be an option? Use of advance teams to dominate the ground prior to the task? As I said without all the background info into the problem it is a difficult one to answer.

Those would be my initial thoughts and considerations.......

[Marian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lietuvis what goes to bully, well pick up biggest heaviest chair in the room and let him taste it.. ============== If it would be lets say Lithuania, i would say shoot them . When it comes to Britain/Ireland , give whatever you can to stay safe as if you will touch criminal you will go to jail for defending yourself and attacking him... Security guard must take REASONABLE actions to stop crime in progress.. Reasonable is call 911 or whatever is the emergency number in your area... You cant even carry firearms or handcuffs here so what can you do... Especcialy if you have a child whaiting at home? Huh? Im lonely no family no pet , no nothing... So probably i would pick heaviest thing i could find and use it, even a torch (Some may be used as weapons ) It also heavily depends on where and with hoom you work... But i would say , if you are trained - trained very well , then ACT , you may never know maybe after robbing you he(criminal) will go and kill someone, so you may save life..

Well as I wrote somwhere else in Poland Cash in Transit looks like that: armoured van with four guys in helmets, body armours, and submachine guns

In general I think life is more important than money especialy if the money's not yours, so let it go.
On the other hand you can always chase the f**kers later they say that "vengeance taste best served cold " and that "anticipation of the death is worse than death itself" so let them now you're coming after them and keep them waiting

No. but seriously from my experience how Police deals here with assaults etc, it seems like Police already took the 2nd option, so why should you take other one, after all it's easier for Police to catch you and prosecute you for excessing the limits of selfdefence, than catch the assaulters for the assault as all they will try to run, sorry for being sarcastic

Lietuvis btw you can carry and use hadcuffs, I have a pair.

[kenpsd]

ACT, first of all I hope your hand gets better soon, maybe best if you lay off the 'monkey spanking' for the next few weeks. Anyway, onto your Thread, like a lot of others on here, I will quantify my remarks by saying that it depends on where you are working. Having had experience in Africa, the attitude there was armoured vehicles ( some retired Brit Army Snatches in my case) kevelar and body armour clad guards with SKS semi auto rifles. Added to that, the normal, avoid routines, switch the cash around between vehicles etc. It worked, for a time, the level of attacks dropped until the 'inside man' informant, whether through fear or cash incentive started to pass information out. The subsequent attacks were scaled to meet our capabilities......more 'bad' guys than guards and they had grenades and AKs!!. So then, get boots out and secure the ground prior to arrival, they then hit the CIT vehicles on the move.

In this Country, the UK, I sometimes get the impression, maybe wrongly, that some people feel that guys who rob banks and CIT vehicles are some sort of Robin Hoods, not the toerags they really are, and that the guards and staff 'get what they deserve'. There is no doubt that in the last 10 - 15 years the advances made on the scientific and technical side of the industry has gone a long way to making life more difficult for potential robbers, but all of the science in the World cannot help when the manager of a bank or CIT Depot or his family are taken hostage, so back to the human aspect again.

Much along the same lines as some of the other posts on here, I would agree with the view that it is only money and not even yours, if you have done your best with the methods of trying to protect it, then you have done your best!

Different story in the 'pit', I was a great believer in big guns and loads of ammo, just in case.....and just in case....more ammo!! not much use when you get 'whacked' by an Ied though!

[Walks99]

Thsi all comes down to the companies putting the guys at risk and giving them the tools to do the jobs.

More jobs, more runs = more risks being taken by crews. This looses the companies in two ways, they loose the money and they loose the business, the crews get the hit in the way of a pay rise and so the cycle begins all over again.

CVIT and asset protection is a joke in the UK. Mostof the guys I owrked with only needed a good fright and they would have dropped dead of a heart attack, no bat or gun needed. You'd of thought that in this day and age of chip and pin and electronic transfer, things would get better.

Trust in the kit and the company is one thing, you can't trust them becasue you are not the only one that becomes complacant and relaxed in your approach. Trust in your sixth scense, stay vigilant and switched on, your chances are better. You'd have thought anyway!

Arming the guards only means upping the anti for the crooks. Better training, less stress from the company and more manageable work loads is the way forward.

[ACT]

Thanks for the replies gents.

Without compromising OpSec can I give you brief out line of the situation, if I appear to be a little vague at times I'm sure you'll understand why.

We are talking Cash in Transit in the UK, though in some of the rougher parts of the city it does feel like a HE.

Being a commercial operation it has to go ahead.

A robbery on a Cash vehicle/ bank will usually last between 20-60 seconds and often as not by a team of three bandits (plus or minus a driver). The MOE will normally be to take out the premises doors with sledge hammers, as a rule two of the team will have the hammers and the other will be tooled up with some sort of threatening weapon to persuade the crew to comply. Once in the bank the robbery will take place, OpSec will not allow any more detail.

Overt SV is sometimes used.

Ringing the police is only of use after the incident, very rarely will the bandits show their hand before the robbery so there are no "combat indicators".

These robberies are fast violent affairs .

Sorry I can't go into too much detail, it is very frustrating as I'm sure some of you guys out there have got some good ideas to throw at this one, I'm sure that guys such as MickWW would be able to adapt the convoy SOPs in to this scenario.

Your ideas and experiences are very much appreciated,

Cheers gents, keep the ideas coming no matter how off the wall they may appear.

Saye Safe

ACT

PS I like the way you Eastern Eurpoean guys think... was only this morning discussing the merits of a 4 cell maglite.

[mickworldwide]

Hi ACT

Thanks for the updates mate , rather than discuss the SOPs here perhaps you could mail me at info@morrigansolutions.org and we can discuss it further off site, convoy SOPs are subject to OPSEC as well !!! believe it or not and I would hate to give away a few of the techniques used in the pit to anyone who may be trawling for info.

I will certainly have a few suggestions for you ref this and you can make your own decisions as to which are viable and which are more importantly legal and affordable to the company.

I do agree with Ken though , in most of these cases there is an insider giving the info, so look at your CIT employees , cross reference the personnel on duty to the attacks etc or look at the local bank workers ... every moment the scroates are on the ground is a risk of capture and these sound less than randomn from what you have described.

look forward to hearing from you

Mick

[ACT]

Cheers Ken,
Although I couldn't fire an SA80 left handed there are still plenty of other things I'm learning to do wit my left hand!
Funnily enough I was doing a little dos and dont's list about "Tiger Kidnaps" only a couple of hours ago.

I can quite readily buy into your philosophy of ammo ammo and more ammo.

Take it easy mate

ACT

[Lietuvis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marian Lietuvis btw you can carry and use hadcuffs, I have a pair.

REALLY? Its allowed in UK?
well im in ROI at the moment its not allowed in here law in here is bul*shi*

While i was in LT i was always carrying firearms even at offices,like most of other guys.. But here we are not allowed to carry anything at all..

It would be good to have AT LEAST handcuffs.