CPO's Primary Weapon of choice

c-scott

We in canada have experienced a high rate of deaths assosiated with taser use in recent months infact it has caused national and international incidents .
My main point is not that the taser does not have a place it certainly does however it should not be deployed to the extent that it is .

I feel that if correct "arrest and control procedure " and "tactical ground control" courses I have instructed to the very people deploying the tasers were practised and Members (officers) were required to qualify yearly in these skills as they are with use of small arms the use of tasers could be reduced by 70-80% .
This would help greatly in both public safety , perception and opinion .

A primary responce officer should have the skills required to arrest , detain and control all but a small % of the general population .
The force used must be apropriate to the threat assesed by the responder .
In many cases in canada where tasers have caused death the threat simply did not justify taser deployment in my opinion .

In the case of the International incident at the vancouver international airport the taser was deployed causing death on a man who threatened only the integrity of office equipment.

I certainly do not take exception to the use of tasers where the threat to the responder is great enough to justify deployment .

C-scott

ASE

c-scott,
Hi mate, can you clarify the reasons of death in the cases of taser-use please? (not obviously that a taser was used...derrr.. but congenital, history, health state at time etc) will help to understand the subject a bit more. Cheers.
ASE

c-scott

I am not a doctor , however in the case at the Vancouver international airport the man was healthy prior to the use of th taser I beleave he stoped breathing .
The most recent case was the death of a perfectly healthy 14 year old boy in manitoba .
The list goes on here in canada many other taser related deaths have been in news in recent months from toronto to vancover .
C-scott

ASE

Cheers c-scott,
Would be good to compare the actual given details of cause of death when a taser was used - to get the intellectual head around the differing causes, if you know what I mean? Just fact. Thanks.
ASE

ASE

Can you give basic statistics against state of health?

jmaccauley

I have trained well over 500 police officers (including retraining and qualification) in the use of TASER's, as well tracked the results of applications. In my agency, we have deployed the TASER approximately 120 times per year over the last 7 years(nearly 1000 applications) We have had one death even remotely attributed to the actual TASER. That guy had lethal amounts of cocaine in his system, congenital heart disease and probably would have died as a result of any prolonged struggle or after a lengthy foot chase.

Nationwide, there have been hundreds of thousands of applications, including most of the police officers who carry it. If I remember correctly, Canada has had 5 deaths where the TASER was a contributing factor, but never the solitary cause of death. Medical condition, excited delirium or drug/alcohol use is just as likely to cause problems. Actually, those same conditions have caused deaths in subjects that were struggling, running, pepper sprayed or, literally frightened to death. I don't subscribe to the media generated hype that TASER's are killing people.

On the other hand, I agree that certain police officers will use a TASER at inappropriate times, or when perhaps other methods can be just as effective. My point to you is that it is a tool and the choice of best tool for the job will always be left up to those who use or need it. I have been Tased twice and can honestly say that it was one time too many. I also have been pepper sprayed many times (intentionally or incidentally) and would prefer the 5 second "ride" any day.

As a Use of Force trainer, I agree that arrest and control tactics need to be learned and practiced. As you pointed out, correctly I might add, the force used needs to be appropriate to the level of resistance. Unfortunately, this has caused many to "underestimate" their opponent and have to make adjustments in the middle of a dynamic and chaotic situation. Also true, many bag guys get shot when the officers run out of options.

I have the oppportunity to interview, or read the commanders interview, of each and every TASER recipient. Almost 100% agree that they feel no long terms effects and most are apologetic and hold no animosity against the officer who used it. They also agree that it was the worse feeling of their life and are usually greatful that they weren't injured, clubbed or shot for their actions.

If anyone is still reading this, I will say that I can see a definate place in the Protection Officers arsenal for a TASER, wherever it is legal of course.

Jerry

c-scott

The stats are more than 5 deaths infact they are at 20 taser related deaths
CBC News Interactive: Canada - Tasers


this shows a map of canada where taser related deaths have happened .

C-scott

jmaccauley

The debate can go on forever, but I can tell you that most groups that supply the data to the media have an agenda (surprise). example, Amnisty International claims TASER responsible for over 300 deaths. TASER sued 65 times and never found to be liable (with one exception where the result was inconclusive and TASER settled).

The debate gets fuzzier when you consider that thousands of suspects or offenders have died while resisting officers over the years. I'm talking about the years before TASER was commonly used. Why? Having testified at depositions involving in-custody death, I can tell you that medical history, substance abuse, chemical imbalances and mental illness play a large role in the majority of these deaths. When a Medical Examiner determines a cause of deathy, he typically lists the last event first. For example, heart stops beating, then attempts to explain why the heart stopped. Along the way, there are many other things that are listed as "contributing factors." Sometimes, the most convenient explanation is not the most accurate.

Again, to fully appreciate the media bias on this point, I will tell you that I have been publicly interviewed by television reporters on several occasions about TASER's. Although I do not represent the company, I have allowed the media to attend a training class and only one reporter allowed himself to be tased. I believe he was the junior guy in the newsroom. He screamed, as expected, and my 2 spotters lowered him to the mats. At the end of the 5 second cycle, the guy jumps up, smiling and tells the camera that he feels perfectly fine now, but those 5 seconds were the worst of his life. Surprisingly, the demonstration was aired intact, although the reporter told me later that his producers wanted to put a negative spin on it.

People have died during strenuous activity since the beginning of time. I have seen reports of positional asphyxia, where a handcuffed prisoner dies due to the compression of his diaphram and has no abillity to breath. Now, the medical community has re thought that position as a direct cause. Do you remember when pepper spray first came into widespread use? Everybody got sprayed when they resisted. Then, a guy in North Carolina died and a medical examiner listed pepper spray as the cause of death. Police departments put the pepper away and told the officers to go back to empty hand techniques or baton. Until they determined that the guy was severely obese and suffered from asthma. Which do you think causes more injuries and death?

As I said, any tool must be used with the appropriate training and justification. However, if you believe that a properly trained student, or officer, can be successful with all but a small % of people, you would have to take all factors into consideration and explain which techniques will work on whom. Only a teacher says that, not someone who deals with violence on a regular basis.

Just so you don't think I'm attacking you ( I wouldn't because I don't know anything about you) I believe that your opinion is more in line with the untrained media than with reality.

Think about the techniques that you teach. Presure points, mechanical advantage, punches, kicks, LVNR (again, I don't know what you teach I'm just making a point) whatever. Nearly all have caused serious injury or death, even when applied correctly, which is never easy to do in a violent confrontation. Even the infamous Rodney King suffered no serious injury from what appeared to be bruatlity.

Back to the media reporting. Why do you suppose that the mainstream media has avoided taking a stand on TASER use? Oh, they report an incident occasionally, but only report when a committee decides to make a statement. They remain neutral. The fringe news outlets are not so selective, nor do they do complete investigating.

c-scott

I have trained with tasers been tased more than 10 times with several units .
"I believe that your opinion is more in line with the untrained media than with reality"
The reality is that we survived prior to the over used taser I have stated several times that I am pro taser however I am not for its use on 14 year old kids or folks who cant speak english and are violent to furniture .

You stated earlier that only 5 deaths were taser related in canada I simply did a google search to find the story above I did not write that story .

The fact is if tasers were used in a more responsible manner those stats would be different .
While you attest that I am bias its seems that you might well have stock in the taser company .
"Only a teacher says that, not someone who deals with violence on a regular basis."


For your info I worked in a super max prison
, on the down town east side of vancouver and am a veteran of Somalia , untill last year I worked as a CPO in mexico and colombia and will be in Kabul in 3 weeks so I have dealt with violence more than many .

Your comments in this last post make you seem childish I have contributed here to the best of my ability but at this point I feel your trying to sell tasers not facts .

If you read what I have said I have never once said they are not effective or that they should be banned .

Charles D. Scott

jmaccauley

My final reply on this topic is this: we both have intelligent opinions based on our personal experiences. I have tried to not base mine on generalizations, but perhaps let a few slip in there. I believe that you have some valid points about some of the misuse. That is probably attributed more to the fact that police officers come from all types of backgrounds and regardless of training, not all are suited for the job.

I would also remind you that this a discussion and not meant to be a personal attack. My comment about the untrained media came about when I felt that you were basing your deaths stats on a the media's list, which by now I'm sure you realize rarely paints the whole picture. The CBC report had over half of the TASER related deaths were associated with excited delirium or cocaine use. That was hardly ever an issue years ago. We also have been trained extensively ingetting an out-of-control into custody so they can get help, as soon as possible. the unfortunate death of a guy who is only tearing up an office
is a great example. At some point, he needs to be secured and taken to a place where his problem can be dealt with. Allowing an enraged person to act out indefinately can also lead to tragedy, which of course will be blamed on the police who are just standing there watching.

I appreciate opposing points of view and I apologize if my comments appeared insulting or challenging. Sometimes, these discussions go on auto pilot. I have fought with administrators for way too many years about reality vs. politically correct training. You, having worked in Max Security prison, do not have to be told about violence. Rules of engagement are always subjective.

Finally, If I actually did sell TASER's, I would never have time to engage in internet chatter. I also would be much better off financially!

TASER is an option, not the only tool available. It should be part of a comprehensive response arsenal.

Jerry