course query

[sunshine]

Mark,
What you say has some sense I know, but if you have no military experience then keep well away from the pit or Afgan.
If people just want to go there so that they have it on their CV they are more of a threat than the baddies that are out there.
Unless you are doing your weapon drills day in day out you will forget things that are important to you and your work buddies.
My advice to you in a friendly way is to forget the firearms part and concentrate on working in the UK without one.
Once you start working look to what other skills that you can offer to a client or the rest of your team.
Look at maybe doing your advanced driving course or aim for the ROSPA Gold standard for driving, I am not saying that you will end up as a driver but you will be an asset with it.
I am all for new guys coming into the industry as we all had to start somewhere and natural wasteage allows for this, but I just wish some of the Training companies out there would tell the bloody truth to students instead of promising them the earth.

If anyone out there can put light on when an armed CP not Psd team has ever managed to stop a principle from being shot once the assailants weapon has been drawn please let us know. If you go back in History of CP or armed security it must be a long way in the past. Take Abe Lincon for one.

[mickworldwide]

Thanks for clearing up what you meant by that.
As regards the Btec qualification, we offer a level 3 course through Regal security in the UK so I am in no way downing the Quals however it is necessary to point out to all that in HE work it most likely wont matter a bit if you have it or not, employmentwise it is not always necessary, to advance in the company it usually will not matter either.
I know this because I was a T/L for several years in the pit and at that time had no sia license nor Btec or any other college quals.
I have since obained these as part of my UK obligations but have never been asked for them as part of a HE gig, (mostly HMG /FCO contracts are the only ones that require it).
I value experience and training (relevant to the task) as I am sure most others do, CP and HECPO are two very different animals and as such training in one does not automatically qualify you for the other.

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by markanderton

It seems that every one has an opinion!
BTEC Level 3 is industry standard training that gives you the written qualification to be a team leader

I will have to agree with the others on this point. The BTEC Level 3 is not a qualification that will make you an effective TL. Without practical experience how can you know how you will react to a real situation where you have to use judgement and skills that can only come from experience. I think we have all been in the situation where a "fresh out of management course" manager really had no idea how to effectively manage and get the best out of the team he is leading. The experienced guys working under that "new manager" had better judgement skills because of that experience gained from years of doing the job rather than simulations.

You may say well why are those experienced people not in a TL role if their experience is so good? It is simply that some people would rather not have the responsibility to lead a team and prefer another to make the final call and to organise the team as that is where they feel comfortable.

What makes a good TL or manager is confidence in their own skill set, the ability to understand how to get the best out of each team member and use their individual strengths for the combined good of the team. That skill can not be taught on a course and that is why there are some that are natural leaders and some that are happy to be lead. To think that a course will automatically fast track you to being TL is pure folly just as completing an sia approved CP course will make you a great CPO. All it does is prepare you for a path to possibly becoming something more and that part comes from inside, not from coursework.

I am not trying to put you down but rather being realistic as that is a good basis to build on to become what you seek.

[Edelweiss Tactical]

Originally Posted by markanderton

we all know that firearms in the EU are a big no no

Hi Mark

The legislation regarding weapon carry such as firearms or impact weapons / control devices and or the use of cuffs or OC spray by private security vary between each country within the EU, as do the laws regarding the escalation of force. Italy, Germany, Austria, Hungary, CZ et al. have in place training, procedures, legislation and licensing that allow sound individuals to be able to aquire, carry and use with responsibilty the correct equipment that may assist their vocation.

Switzerland (Non EU though sharing many bilateral agreements with its EU neighbours) supports the security profession to the fullest extent compared to the Draconian laws of the United Kingdom.

Taking the above into consideration, a foreign national who is visiting a certain country would normally not be able to carry or use such equipment, however most countries do have in place a procedure that allows this, the question is the reasoning, meeting the criteria to do so and perseverance, of which utilising a security company in location and outsourcing your work would be much easier and sounder decision.

Best Regards

JC

[andynorris]

Lads..! What a variation of replies..!! I like the comment about 'team leader'...sorry Mark mate - until you have experience - would you even call yourself team leader - i mean come on, there are guys on the Circuit with 20+ years military/operational experience - these men can call themselves team leaders - and I'd gladly accept a team operators position under their command! I think it's very ambitious to land into a team and expect this status without first proving yourself.

Oh, and by the way, Ronin UK ripped off Ronin SA - who have set the standards for CP courses within the industry. And military does help - a lot - civvies just won't understand why!

[sunshine]

Andy,
What do you set the standards against for the best CP course around, just interested.

As to the Military against civvy then that is a different argument as there are civvies out there that i would and have worked with that are more street wise than squaddie's and it can show. One of the main differences between civvies and squaddies is they do not go into little groups and think that they are the best, they just get on with the job as a team member.
i have been in the industry for over 13 years and have seen most of it first hand.

Put them in the pit and i will agree with you until the cows come home that the military mindset is first class, but in civvie street you are on a level field.
Also I have found that it is far easier to put girls and civvies together as they do not hold an misconseptions of who they are.It was noted on a job where one of the military guys had just got his license to work CP, he did not like it that a femail with over 14 years experience was on the team.
She had worked at the top level and still does and was one of the first civvie CP females in the country who has worked with some of the best operators and some of the roughest.

This topic has been going on for ages and will always run, but on another note some of the best CP operators on the Circuit are civvies, not all but just look around at people like Peter Constadine and Gerry Judd.

As a foot note yes i have a military background but also a civvie one to.

[andynorris]

Hello Mate. Firstly, I'm not attempting to put anybody down here, in any form or fashion. I'm all for women in the industry - we do rely on them to keep everything turning and more are necessary. Regards the civvies, the same sentiment. What my point was, and what really grips my shit are companies that release civvies into the industry (with FA experience) and give them a wee piece of paper that suggests to them that they can crack on as a TL. Please! I'm sure it's possible, though believe it's damned rare!

Here's where I believe the Army and team building kicks in. Yes I agree that civvies are equal in the commercial world, but when the shit hits the fan, I want a seasoned soldier watching my arse! I don't care if it's a woman or a sheman, I want the experience behind me.

Also, I didn't say that Ronin SA were the best, I did say that they are setting the standards. Having completed 3 courses (yes I have civvy experience as well) Ronin SA (also civvies!) are far and above anybody else I've been with. The medical package alone and the ambulance/response shifts in Cape Town where you deal with real patients (gunshots/stabbings/heart attacks) is unbeatable. Marry that with the weapons, live firing, convoy driving, unarmed combat, tactical firearms and much more, you have a course to be beaten I tell you! I mean which course in UK even lets students practice IV's and LT's, let alone let you carry out CPR and IV's on a real patient. Let me know the answer to that one.

Anyway friend, thanks for the reply. All the best, Andy.

[cpt291]

Andy. Intersting what you say about all of the medical stuff on the Ronin SA course. It does sound great, however I must ask what they are training people for.

The medical stuff that you talk about sounds fairly similar to a patrol medics course and not the sort of thing that you would assume would be associated with training a guy in CP. In order to train an person to operate in a HE there are far more beneficail things that can be taught than all that med. By all means have a couple of guys on a team trained to that medical standard, but not all. Teaching someone to identify the risks, plan and assess the risks would be more useful, thus avoiding risks, then hopefully you would not need all the medical knowledge. There are too many stories from the pit of poorly trained people missing basic combat indicators. I had a coffee with one the other day who was proud to tell me he thought he saw the signs but carried on down the road regardless. Needless to say lots of him team lost their lives in a foreign country.

Skill fade must also be considered with advanced med training, people that train to the level you descirbe should be either constantly treating complicated injuries or are having skills refrehsed on a course. I would be wary of someone having done a course to that level who has not been refreshed.

Some could argue the same for CP, but at least in a good team you are constantly on the ranges and or training with them.

Perhaps the next CP company on the block should include a basic mechanics course incase you breakdown. They could take them to the local garage and work on real cars!!

In my opinion Ronin SA are not the market leader, there are better companies in the market.

[andynorris]

Mate...!!! What planet are you on..??? You mean to tell me that if your client had a heart attack or your mate takes a hit and because you haven't bothered to learn 'that med stuff' he'd just die or have his chances of survival greatly decreased. That'd be on your head brother...!!! Bodyguard! How can you call yourself a bodyguard if you can't guard your clients body - from within as well as from without.

That's the problem in the industry. Inadequacy.

I believe every team member should be medically trained. Combat first, medical 2nd.
An all round player. Perhaps you'll change your mind when a medically trained operator saves your life.

[cpt291]

Firstly, did I every say I was a BG and you should watch your comments when you do not know the background of people on this forum. Clearly, I am from a far more populated and geneically advanced plant than you.

At no stage did I ever say that people should not be medically trained. There is a limit to the levels of medical training that can successfully be taught, if the skills are not maintained. A medic who does not practice or have refreshers can be more danger to a VIP.

Too many courses concentrate on these skills, rather than concentrating on risk assessing and avoidance, ie not getting your boss into dangerous positions.

I have seen your responses to other threads, which gives me a level of you and I am glad you are not my BG. Therefore, I dont wish to trade threads all day with you.