On Close Quarter Combat and Traditionnal Martial Arts

[Fred2882]

...the debate continues...interesting subject.

My 2 cents worth, and probably sounding a little cynical. See if this is close to the money.

You train and grade your way through the coloured belts aiming at 1st dan and beyond, being told along the way when you attain this your real training will begin. When you do grade 1st dan you find you are expected to start getting instructor's qualifications and at times stand in front of a class.

If you are a good lad/lass prepared to spend a lot of your time instructing, at a school under a grandmaster, you will pass your dan gradings. If you prefer to remain just a student, or are in a school not aligned with a grandmaster, good luck if you want to progress beyond about 2nd dan. You'll need it.

Personally I felt sharper moving through the higher coloured belt gradings, training hard for gradings every 4 months, rather than standing at the front of a class of beginners, with the prospect of having to wait long periods for dan gradings.

Hence the reason why I'm not involved anymore. Noticed a few of the users have studied several styles. Interested to hear if what I've outlined had something to do with this, the desire to continue intense learning/training, rather than instructing.

PS - everyone claims their form/style is the best. Who do you believe?

[jmaccauley]

Styles, reality, sport, self defense, etc. are different and the same. Here is why they all have their place in your training:

As you learn any physical activity, there does form a mind-body link. Coordination is based on experience. You guys know this, but it's fun to have a new student do this to help make the point. Stand with both legs a little bit wider than shoulder width. Lift one leg without moving the upper body. Of course you can't and ask them why? Balance and counter balance. Takes about 5 seconds to explain a theory that has had whole books written about and several belt rankings to perfect. So simple, but not profitable if you run a school. An instructor will want you to return and delve into the mysteries of martial arts with more detail.

Obviously, thats an extreme example but we (trainers who have these debates) hear these arguments about style over substance frequently. What style doesn't rely on simple physics as a base, then spend the next few years destroying that basic concept by imaging how you can use physics to beat an opponent? Or defend yourself, or obtain inner peace?

Many new twists on how to make the body respond to different scenarios are always popping up. It's nothing new, but it's explained in a different way. These are what catch your eye and maybe make more sense to each of us. As trainers, we are always looking for the best way to speed up that mind-body link. Thats our job. If we aren't careful, we end up teaching people how to develop their "best move," rather than the most appropriate one.

If we are running a business, there is always a danger in allowing self discovery because we'd lose students. As coaches and mentors however, we will always have an audience of serious students.

Plus, in my opinion, assisted self discovery is satisfying to be a part of!

Jerry

[slim]

I did a bit of Jap Ju Jitsu and kickboxing and am currently doing Krav Maga and I love it. It involves a fair bit of 'unlearning' of old techniques if thats the right word, which I find harder than learning new techniques. I love the stripped back nature of it and the emphasis on immediate counterattack.

That being said, I was involved in a casual training session last night with a group of guys from the security world focusing on stuff like weapons defences. Everyone had a different background ranging from ninjitsu to tae kwon do to tai chi to military training to krav. I learned so much by comparing everyones methods and seeing which way way works and how they work differently to each other. It was really good to look at these things and evaluate them for yourself other than just being taught by one person. Couldn't recommend it enough.

Also, if your chosen method of defence doesn't work for some reason, it's comforting to have backups!

But I think every martial artist is going to back their discipline to the hilt, otherwise they wouldn't be committing all that time to it. One of the most oldest arguments in the world is the 'my martial art is better than your martial art' one. I think a good fighter has the right ticker not the right style.

[VICTORMACE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mts Completely incorrect. There are some limitations, but with the correct instructor and protective gear you can get fairly close to the real deal. Judo also has it's limitations, you cannot complete an arm lock or strangulation to it's full capacity. With had to hand combat/martial arts, one should select what works for them. It is obvious and been stated many times that traditional Eastern martial arts take many many years of practice until they begin to reach their applicability whilst "harder" forms such as KM are simpler and quicker to teach and learn. There is little doubt that a versed traditional Eastern martial artist will be able to defend him/herself very effectively, but do we have the time to study these arts? I don't although i'd like to. These are truly arts that focus on the internal softer aspects and thereafter reaching external/hard applications where hard skills such as KM focus on the external right away. No energy, no ki/Chi, no meridians, simple and effective fighting. It is not IMHO an art though, rather a practical skill. Is this better than say karate, Judo or other? Depends on the practitioner. I know some Karateka that i would not want to meet in a dark alley (but i'm not very strong lol). It's all dependant on what works for you, your personality type and physical ability. I for one prefer a more flexible fighting skill to the traditional Eastern arts that need to be exact, but that's just me - for internal development i really enjoyed Tai Chi, but that is more of a dance :-) Nike or Reebok? Mercedes or BMW (or Aston :-D ). It's all down to preferance and what one wants to achieve. I am no 9 volt ninja, viking or other such fighting machine; nor am i an expert in the martial arts, but i have seen what works in reality when the SHTF and it all works if matched to the practitioner and studied correctly. Hope that ramble made sense and moreover helps someone. m

WELL mts I'm totally biased here think its just my very long association with Judo, and I totally agree with Krav Maga as being an effective form of self defence quickly taught and easily learnt, the likes of Judo and Karate take a long time to learn, but the guys at the top of their game in these martial arts are hard to beat. I think the secret is adaption and flexability when studying techniques that work, what works for one might not necessarily work for another.

[mts]

Quote:

Originally Posted by VICTORMACE WELL mts I'm totally biased here think its just my very long association with Judo, and I totally agree with Krav Maga as being an effective form of self defence quickly taught and easily learnt, the likes of Judo and Karate take a long time to learn, but the guys at the top of their game in these martial arts are hard to beat. I think the secret is adaption and flexability when studying techniques that work, what works for one might not necessarily work for another.

VICTORMACE, mate, i did not intend to wind you up at all. Your post matches mine 100%. My disagreement was regarding the fact that KM practitioners cannot test themselves fully and i drew a parallel that Judokas cannot either.

I also agree that a traditional Eastern martial artist who has trained long enough under the correct instructor will know what they are doing. I am not a KM is the be al land end all preacher. Reread my post, it's all about what works for you to do what you need it to do.

Stay safe

m

[Usagi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mts VICTORMACE, mate, i did not intend to wind you up at all. Your post matches mine 100%. My disagreement was regarding the fact that KM practitioners cannot test themselves fully and i drew a parallel that Judokas cannot either. I also agree that a traditional Eastern martial artist who has trained long enough under the correct instructor will know what they are doing. I am not a KM is the be al land end all preacher. Reread my post, it's all about what works for you to do what you need it to do. Stay safe m

I very often train with relatives of mine who are skilled Judokas. I really like learning from them. I find Judo a very good complement to CQC training. And believe me, a skilled Judoka who learn CQC techniques (Krav Maga and the likes) make a VERY HARD-TO-DEFEAT opponent.

I don't fully agree that Krav Maga allows us to test our skills. When I teach Krav Maga to new-comers, I first teach them simple techniques like fingers in the eyes, elbow on the jaw, knees up to the balls. I also teach them to use whatever object they can find. Even full protection will not allow this. Protection gear basically protects from blows and punches. However, after every CQC session, I have the students (even the less skilled) doing some Judo fighting on the ground. And they fight hard. You can tell who has the most mind power. They are the ones who push their heartbeat up to 200. They suffocate under the opponent and they keep fighting. On the ground, you learn not to give up, you learn the meaning of fear, you learn how to breathe.

By the way, it is in Israel, training with Eli Leffler, that I discovered the usefullness of Judo in CQC. Since then, Judo goes along with CQC in my trainings.

Francois

[hippy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by newman Its not too much of a generalisation to say that martial arts is what you do WITH someone and self-defence is what you do TO someone.

If you look at the word martial and its meaning, anything from fencing to KM to judo to boxing and even GPMG lesson 1 (load unload, make safe)

'self defence' is a form of combat and therefore a 'martial art'.. Thats why I tend to use the term 'traditional combat style' when refering to the likes of judo

[jmaccauley]

I tend to think of self defense as what you don't let people do to you (by whatever means) and martial arts as , well, art.

We're back to symantics.

Jerry

[80085]

I agree with the above that you should be proficient in all forms.

[hippy]