Teaching Gun Retention - Need advice

[shakespeare]

Muscle memory is king.

[ASE]

Very good topic.
After spending 3 long years 24/7 (mid to late 90's PSC) with my 9mil in cond 1 - I know my preferences. Depending on which task I was on decided how/where I could carry it; could be small of back holster, cross-draw, shoulder, holster-bag, ankle. Having worked with the Israelis, and knowing how they prefer cond 3, I got to see both sides of the coin and learnt that there is more than one way to skin a rabbit/cook an egg/etc.

Not each system had thumb-break or other retention feature.

Bottom line in my humble opinion is, no matter what condition the wpn is in (1 or 3), or carry system you have, "practice-practice-practice". You can bet I was down the range at least 3 times per week not to just shoot, but getting the bugger in my hand from the system I carried it in. Same goes for the topic of this thread.

ATB

[Usagi]

Shakespeare, I fully agree when you say that "muscle memory is king" but we also must take into account that making choices under stress is poor!

Let me explain. Let's say you train hard enough so you have 30 different techniques stored in your muscle memory (it's an image of course). I'm talking about years of continous training. Now, a bad guy comes at full speed in your back at unaware. Adrenaline rushes into your blood!

One of the effect of adrenaline (and the other chemicals) is to cut off your cognitive brain (or to reduce its capacity). The cognitive brain is responsible for many things. Among them: Making choices.

We now go back to the bad guy. How are we gonna choose between one of the 30 techniques if the part of the brain responsible for that is not functionning properly. Even worst, before you can choose, you must see what the guy is doing. He is going for my gun, or my nuts? Look, analyse, choose and then apply the technique stored in the muscle memory. This is what I have problems with. Too many techniques seems to be worst than no techniques at all when too much emphasis is put on the technique and not enough on the mindset.

FMT

[trudge]

it's simple to write on a forum what if,what happened, what could of happened. You never know what peolpe can do in cetain situations, less they be put there and answered the question. all anyone can do is train an train an hope in our line of work there never put in this situation because it showed u failed in one point of the job!!!

[Usagi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by trudge it's simple to write on a forum what if,what happened, what could of happened. You never know what peolpe can do in cetain situations, less they be put there and answered the question. all anyone can do is train an train an hope in our line of work there never put in this situation because it showed u failed in one point of the job!!!

Trudge, I'm not getting your point! I am on the forum asking questions and proposing situations that experienced members may have seen in their life.

Regarding training, I hate training blindly just like so many martial artists that never ever question their techniques (or their master's techniques). Training is one thing but making sure that the way we train is efficient is another thing.

By the way, my favorite questions when training are: What if? What Happened? and what could have happened? The answers (or the lack of answer) often deserve some thougths...

FMT

[Usagi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASE Very good topic. After spending 3 long years 24/7 (mid to late 90's PSC) with my 9mil in cond 1 - I know my preferences. Depending on which task I was on decided how/where I could carry it; could be small of back holster, cross-draw, shoulder, holster-bag, ankle. Having worked with the Israelis, and knowing how they prefer cond 3, I got to see both sides of the coin and learnt that there is more than one way to skin a rabbit/cook an egg/etc. Not each system had thumb-break or other retention feature. Bottom line in my humble opinion is, no matter what condition the wpn is in (1 or 3), or carry system you have, "practice-practice-practice". You can bet I was down the range at least 3 times per week not to just shoot, but getting the bugger in my hand from the system I carried it in. Same goes for the topic of this thread. ATB

Thanks ASE for sharing your field experience. I agree with you regarding the need to practice-practice-practice no matter what condition of carry one use. Before training in Israel, I always trained in condition 1. It took me a lot of training to get used to condition 3. But in the end, I got it right and fast.

FMT

[mts]

On what not to do: never ever use a bikini holster with no closing mechanism. Many many a moon ago, i used a mates nice slim bikini holster that covers pretty much only the center of the weapon. In easy to understand terms, it was a bikini :-)

To cut a long story short, when it was dark and on a bushy embankment, the weapon was no longer there, it had fallen about 1meter down. Luckily i found it, but i have never and will never use that type of holster again. There are holsters without closing features that are good and hold the weapon solidly, just make sure of it.

One way to help prevent the boogie man grabbing your weapon is to keep it concealed well. If he/she doesn't know you have it, or where you carry it, chances are, they won't make a blind grab.

m

[ASE]

Usagi,
I believe that for a CPO in an EP role, the majority of the time you will be carrying concealed - therefore use of "retention or not" may be based more on your inner fear of not being able to draw on time, or the wpn falling out.

For the CPO in a Psd type role, then the pistol (as your backup?) is usually exposed on the thigh, chest or hip (basic examples) - here is where "to use retention" is perhaps more serious because of the added threat of an aggressor/opportunist taking it.

In the PSD role described above, surely the preference is retention in a form that works for you. I will use retention because I dont want him falling on the floor, or eager hands trying to grab him. But thats me.

Where I am, the police on the street carry either pistols or revolvers. The pistol guys carry mainly tactical belt (hip) holsters with retention or tight-fit. Nearly all the revolver guys carry a loose hanging basic leather holster low-slung with a cord attached to the butt swivel. The weapon basically is flopping around - I find myself always staring at this scene and imagining myself wanting to grab it. Why do they do that? God knows.

It's what works for you best as a professional. Your personal choice. Just dont leave it in a public toilet down the cafe....

ATB

[jmaccauley]

My take on the whole "muscle memory" idea is that the term has been misused. The idea that you will instinctively move a certain way without thinking about it is, of course, sound. When something comes near your eye, you will blink. You don't think. Your brain doesn't say, "turn away, and duck." Gross motor skills need to be trained, of course, but here's the problem with learning specific repititions for a sudden weapon grab. It may not occur the way you trained. This has been the downfall of many so-called defense "systems" taught over the years. Remeber the comedy routine of Jim Carrey as a karate instructor telling his student that they "attacked him wrong" after he gets stabbed repeatedly. (You can still find the clip on youtube)

As for retention holsters; the weapon should be accessible to the operator regardless of whether or not it is concealed. Accessing and drawing will be conscious actions, but retention and defense will be reflexive only if there is a commonality of training. By that I mean that attacking the attacker is the training platform regardless of whether or not it is a gun grab or any other defensive response. As I said, the K.I.S.S. principle has a better chance of working under stress than having to let your brain identify the specific type of attack, searching for an appropriate and trained response, then executing it.

On a side note, the issue of carry condition will always remain a personal preference. Assuming that someone who relieves you of your weapon will immediately shoot you should motivate you to stopping that attacker as quickly and violently as possible. Makes more sense than hoping that when it happens he won't be able to shoot you. Just my opinion of course.

Jerry

[tazape]

Sometimes i think the training we recieve is to optimistic with its approach to weapon retention.
The idea should be protect yourself first, as said before if you go all out, eye gouge, etc disable the threat then worry about your weapon.
There are a lot of ideas about weapons retention. Some are valid, some are dangerous and some will get you killed. The reason is that some weapon retention techniques are designed to work against “the act of grabbing your gun” not the reason for doing so.
Such tactics will only work in the best case secanrios as in training.
My two pence.