Teaching Gun Retention - Need advice

[Usagi]

Hi everyone

I would like to hear from fellows shooting and CQC instructors on this forum about gun retention. Some time ago, I included gun retention in my CQC curriculum. I was myself trained by a skilled instructor. However, I'm starting to have serious doubts about the whole thing.

When I say gun retention here, I mean preventing the pistol from being pulled out from a hip holster and stolen.

First, I must agree, gun retention works really well in the combat room, when you know that someone is coming to put his hand on your gun, when you are expecting it.

During a walking drill with CPO students, I had them carrying a training pistol and I told them that all along the day, I would try to steal their weapon. They were already trained in gun retention. Well, I found out that there is no way they could react fast enough to prevent me from stealing their gun, when they are not expecting it.

What do you think? Is it realistic to teach gun retention?

Here's what I think. I strongly believe that if an aggressor comes from behind and try to steal your weapon, he will succeed. Then, the first think to do is to prevent him from using it. And this is regular CQC training. You fight the aggressor until he moves no more. And then you take your pistol back to finish the job (just kidding!)

I hear people saying that if the aggressor has a chance to pull the gun out of the holster, he will shoot you before you can even start fighting him. This might be true if you carry in condition 1 (a round in the chamber). However, carrying a pistol in condition 3 (no round in the chamber) solves the problem. By the time the aggressor cocks the gun, a person well trained in CQC should have enough time to react.

There are people (including myself not too long ago) saying that carrying a pistol in condition 3 would be unsafe since you also have to cock it before shooting, and you loose time doing it. Well, after training in Israel, I can tell you, if you train long enough, drawing your weapon, cocking it and shooting can be really fast. So I don't think the point is really relevant.

I would like to hear from other CQC and shooting instructors about this. I must say that even though I teach handgun shooting, I am not an expert. That's why I'm asking you guys, what do you think about gun retention?

Thanks for your help

All the best

FMT

[jmaccauley]

I'll give a quick response now and try to elaborate as others join in.

I teach weapon retention both in the holster and while being deployed. I like a 3 step plan as follows:

1. Always use a security holster with retention snaps and be aware.

2. Upon earliest recognition that an attempt is being made, immediately secure both the weapon and the aggressors hand down into the holster. establish your balance and base.

3. Attack the attacker, not his hand or arm. Eye gouge, throat strikes, knees strikes, head butts, whatever it takes to redirect his attention from the weapon while you determine the most appropriate method of disengaging from him.

Obviously, these appear to be overly simplistic, but the reality is, I can show you how I would do it under the conditions that I am training in (size, direction, surprise, fitness and skill level, etc.) of the attacker. This cannot be a one size fits all solution.

However, the basics give you time to create space: two major incredients to any self defense scenario; time and space

I'll add more when my colleagues chime in.

Jerry

[Edelweiss Tactical]

Concealed Appendix carry works quite well ....

how was your fingers after Eli's dry drilling mega sessions?

[recon]

to be honest with you mate gun ret in the real world (meaning on the streets) depends on two things the type of holester and the suition i was always taught to carry a back up yes you can disarm the person vital points yes eyes groin i hav disarmed many security guards here wrong type of holester !!!!!!!! or in proper grip of the weopen hope this helps a bit

[shakespeare]

Here's an interesting article I dug out.


The information on this page is an unclassified extract containing no sensitive information but should still be considered for Law Enforcement Use Only.

This lesson discusses the various techniques that SRT members can use to retain their weapon (long gun and pistol) when a threat attempts to seize it. The primary means of weapon retention, however, is a lethal backup.

LONG-GUN RETENTION

A long gun should be equipped with a sling to provide secure carrying and allow hands-free actions. A long gun without a sling may become a liability to the team and others involved in a situation. If you must enter an objective with a long gun that does not have a sling, avoid close proximity to the threat and keep both hands on your weapon. If you enter a room and the threat grabs your gun, assume that he intends to harm you. If another team member can obtain target acquisition, he should eliminate the threat.

FRONT-KICK METHOD
During clearing operations, both hands are usually on your primary weapon. If the threat advances too close or is noncompliant when ordered back, bring your primary weapon to the close-in-ready position. Deliver a front kick, step forward or backward depending on the situation, and keep the kick below your waist.

PUSH-AND-PULL METHOD
Keep both hands on your weapon and control its direction. Push into the threat, control the muzzle direction, and reverse momentum suddenly. Try to remain standing and violently pull the stock into your body. If necessary to control distance, deliver a kick immediately before or after contact. Cover the threat, select the target area, and shoot until the threat is eliminated. Be aware that the threat may be wearing body armor with a trauma plate (lead ricocheting off a trauma plate can injure the shooter).

STRIKE-AND-SHOOT METHOD
Strike the threat on the base of his chin with the palm of your support hand. Push your hand upward and fully extend your arm. The threat’s head will tilt back, and his balance will carry him away from you. Try to remain standing and pull the weapon into your body by the pistol grip, causing the sling to tighten and the muzzle to point toward the threat. Consider the length of your arm compared to the length of your gun. If your support arm is extended laterally to the front, the gun’s muzzle may have to be angled downward. The muzzle may naturally aim low, but you must be aware of your arm and hand positions before shooting. Direct the muzzle toward the threat’s groin, femoral artery, or hip and fire until he is eliminated. Continue to push the threat away and withdraw to a safe, controlled distance. This method may work best if the gun stock is tucked and squeezed under your armpit (close-in-ready position).

REDIRECT-AND-SHOOT METHOD
A room filled with clutter may cause you to lose your balance during a struggle. If this happens, redirect the momentum in a circular direction to either side, away from the wall. Use the wall to regain your balance and to stun the threat with a violent impact. Do not resist the motion; accelerate it, which causes the threat to experience a whip-like effect. Once the distance is correct, accelerate the threat’s momentum with a solid, front kick to increase the reactionary gap. If another team member can obtain target acquisition, he should eliminate the threat.

DROP-AND-SHOOT METHOD
If you fall to the ground, keep your firing hand on the pistol grip. Break the fall with your support hand by slapping the ground with the palm of your extended arm before your body strikes the ground. While breaking the fall, kick the threat around his knees or waist. This increases the distance and causes the sling to tighten. When the middle sling keeper slides to the rear of the stock, the muzzle should be pointing at the threat. Do not let the threat land on you; be prepared to kick him away, and fire until he is eliminated.

STEP-DRAW-SHOOT METHOD
Keep your support hand on the weapon and extend your arm. Kneel back while drawing the pistol with your firing hand. Bring the pistol to the close-in-ready position, shoot the threat in the pelvis, and fire until he is eliminated. Be aware of where your hand is in relation to the muzzle of your primary weapon so that you do not shoot yourself.

CLOCK METHOD
If the threat grabs the muzzle end of your weapon, maintain a firm grip on the weapon. The rear of the weapon can be controlled better than the muzzle. Rotate the muzzle in a full circle, much like following the hands of a 2-foot-diameter clock. The threat’s grip will be broken before the circle is complete. Immediately following the circular motion, administer a kick or an open-hand strike to the threat’s face with your support hand. Create distance and shoot if necessary.

WRIST-BREAKING J METHOD
If the threat grabs the muzzle end of your weapon, grab his hand and squeeze it tightly. Twist his hand in a circular motion as described in the clock method above. His hand will bend backward, and the barrel will cross his hand and wrist. His wrist will break if downward pressure is applied, rendering him incapable of holding or controlling the muzzle of your weapon. The J pattern starts downward and circles to the outside of the threat’s grasping arm in a quick, circular pattern to 12 o’clock. As the barrel reaches its place on the ulna bone, jerk the muzzle straight downward to 6 o’clock. Shoot as the muzzle travels across the threat’s body, and follow with a knee strike or a kick to increase the reactionary gap.

J METHOD
The J method is performed like the wrist-breaking method above, except you keep both hands on your weapon. You shoot through the retention motion or snatch the weapon away. Follow with a knee strike or a kick to increase the reactionary gap. Remember, the higher the kick, the more likely you are to lose your balance and deliver a slower kick.

PISTOL RETENTION

Team members must keep in mind that these are last-resort methods. They are used when a threat has surprised a team member and is attempting to grab the pistol from him. Ideally, a team member does not let the threat get close enough to grab his weapon.

HOLSTER AND ALERT METHODS
All team members carry an *** pistol as their primary or backup weapon. The three basic carrying positions are holstered, low ready, and close-in ready. When a pistol is out of the holster, it is usually carried in the low-ready or close-in-ready position. It is not actually covering anyone, but it is ready if needed. The first step is to get the attacker at least one arm’s length away. This is called rock and block, and it enables the shooter to draw his weapon from the holster.
·If the attacker is unarmed, strike his upper chest, head, or face with the palm of your hand.
·If the attacker is armed, bring your arm up to the high-block position to block his blow and parry your weapon. Follow with a strike to his upper chest.

DISSOLVING METHOD
If the threat grabs your pistol, grab the slide with your support hand and do not let go. Sound off and get back-up to eliminate the threat.

CIRCLE-AND-COUNTER METHOD
If backup is unavailable, head-butt the threat with your helmet and perform the J method. If the struggle continues, shoot the threat with the first round in the chamber and drop the magazine from the weapon or vice versa. Do not expect the weapon to cycle, and do not expect the threat to give up. If this does not disengage the threat, stay close to him. Do not let him point the muzzle at you, but press the weapon against his body with yours.

DROP-STRIPPING METHOD
Fire on the threat if your weapon is loaded and ready. If your weapon is not ready, stun the threat with a stomp to his instep, a knee strike to his lower torso or outer thigh, or a kick to his leg. If this does not work, jerk your weapon straight down the front of his body with the muzzle pointing up (body dynamics will cause him to release your weapon).


Hope this is of some use mate.

Regards

Shakes

[mts]

Usagi

Very interesting and relevant question. The first line of defense in keeping your weapon safe is your overall awareness.
If someone can get close enough to snatch a weapon, they can stab you or harm you in another way.

As mentioned, there are various holsters with a thumbreak which releases as you grab the weapon or other systems such as the Fobus retention holsters.

There is also the classic cord that is attached to your person and to the weapon, although i personally do not like this.
See this video of a gun snatch and what happens afterwards.

YouTube - Surveillance video of Jerusalem...

Interview with the guard after the shooting. BTW, his friend was shot by him, not the terrorist and not how it was reported. Also, he should never have shot at the terr in the fist phase, rather given hima dose of H@H as his friend did. A crowded road with civilians is not place to open fire when it can be neutralized other ways.

YouTube - Security Guard Recalls Shootout

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[mts]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edelweiss Tactical how was your fingers after Eli's dry drilling mega sessions?

ET, although i know Eli well, i haven't trained with him. I will say this however, after awhile the wounds turn to callouses on the thumbs and forefinger grow hard and stay that way :-)

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[Usagi]

My fingers after shooting with Eli? Well, don't tell anybody but I ended up using medical tape around two of my fingers. ;-)

[mts]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Usagi My fingers after shooting with Eli? Well, don't tell anybody but I ended up using medical tape around two of my fingers. ;-)

That's standard SOP brother, standard!!! :-)

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