Shoulder holster - Suggestions?

hippy

Many valid points above....

One I particulary agree with is the fact that a driver should concentrate on driving! We did once, some time ago, in our irresponsible youth, attempt firing whilst driving and I can assure everyone it was more akin to a French farce than anything else!

If you are sure you require your drivers to be able to reach the weapon with more ease than belt carries allow, consider a 'car holster'.. In that the weapon is clipped to either the dash under the steering wheel or on to the door pocket. Then when exiting the vehicle the weapon is transferred on to his/her person...

Rich H

Absolutley agree with you Hippy.

Drivers are for driving. This method is so agreed upon that the R & DPD drivers do not carry. Their sole aim is to drive. You cannot handle a vehicle properly and fire a weapon properly at the same time.

If the driver is also a BG (it does happen) and the threat determines that he should carry then a IWB holster is going to hurt, likewise any holster on the waist is going to hurt. I would recommend a shoulder holster in this instance and to train a great deal so that the motion is habitual and fluid.


Rich H

psdtraining

Rich, others who state Drivers DRIVE, totally agree......... but again, as Rich says, takes a lot of muscle memory to make it fluid.

Also, just a quick point, why does it need to be a vertical carry???? Do the management not trust the drivers? Surely their hands would always be on the steering wheel and not "playing" with the weapon??? Also....... if it's a CP role, the "principal/client" should surely be sat behind the operator/BG, on the opposite side to the driver.....................?

AB

Rich H

Grayjay,

There are many affecting factors concerning all aspects of CP and the carraige and concealment of weapons is certainly at the fore. Security is very much an education process as well for those Principal's whereby their wishes come over in a dictatorial fashion. It is important that the TL addresses these issues in an advisory capacity explaining the pro's and con's with a strong recommendation for his preferred method. The carraige of a weapon by a driver will confuse the driver in priorities during any reaction to attack. A block front, block rear, vehicle incapacitated etc all provide immediate actions by the driver to counter the ambush/ attack. It is of paramount importance that the driver continues to drive, to keep the vehicle moving.

However, as already mentioned by Hippy, a vehicle weapon for the driver would be a good idea for vehicle extraction drills. Overall, the driver should not carry and if he does have a weapon then a vehicle weapon such as a MP5K, if possible, holstered under the seat, beside the seat or positioned in the foot well would be advised.

If this advice is still not agreed by the Principal then it should be advised that it would be better for the driver to wear a proper 'tactical shoulder holster' but for the weapon to remain in 'condition 2'. That being, magazine fitted, no round in the chamber. Again, the importance of the driver(s) undergoing extensive training of cocking their weapon on the draw cannot be understated. Many Eastern block countries and Israel train their operatives in this manner and the speed difference in comparison to a holstered weapon with a chambered round, (condition 1), is negligable.

If this is still not wanted then I'm afraid the driver will just have to suffer the pain in his side.


Rich H

Grayjay

Firstly thank you all for taking the time to reply to this thread, it's always good to hear a range of viewpoints on a topic.

While the points made are undoubtedly valid, to put our situation into context (without giving away too much in an open forum) I'd just like to clarify the following -

I work in a Close Protection Unit within a state police force outside of the UK. All state police officers carry sidearms.

We are not the private sector and as such we work under many layers of management and oversight, far too few of whom have any real understanding of the role our unit provides.

Unlike the private sector the equipment we use is what we are issued, we cannot chose equipment of our own preference.

In order to trial new equipment it has to be signed off by the police training unit (see comment re management). This resulted in the direction for the vertical carry - which we argued (Federal Police use horizontal carry) and were overruled (after all, professional operators can't be trusted not to dick around with their guns and God knows Glocks have a nasty habit of discharging while holstered!) .

I wholeheartedly agree with the comments that the driver should only be concerned with driving. All members of our unit are cross trained in all roles, including driving, as such everybody has a good understanding of the whole CP operation. However, with Low threat jobs we will run with just two operators, a Ppo and CPO/Driver, consequently there is a greater need for those operators to be flexible in their roles and adapt to the situation. Flexibility in the equipment available to those operators can only be an asset.

At the risk of highjacking my own thread, I would be very interested to hear from those of you who have worked for both government agencies and the private sector as to what, in your opinions, are the pro's and con's for each and which you ultimately prefer.

For my part, I believe I may have let slip a con earlier!

Grayjay

Rich H

Grayjay,

I have operated for the government in both a civilian and military environment. Handgun carry was carried in both shoulder via a sewn in holster to a mil vest and also, in civvi dress, a pancake to the right but just slightly behind the 'center of waist'. Drivers in both environments never wore any type of holster except for the mil vest. Their primary weapon was a kurtz and carried in the footwell jammed between the drivers seat and either the centre 'gear shift column' or 'door step'. During mil moves the weapon was always in condition one, (for both driver and BG), and was secured in the shoulder holster. The position of this holster was such that, the muzzle would be facing rearwards but slightly in the downwards position. A position you are trying to avoid.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure I fully understand your methods of operation. If you work a 2 man team and one of those is a driver then for the duration of the op, he should remain as driver. Arrival at locations, does he not remain with the vehicle? It should not really make any difference the way you conduct your op. The driver should only drive. There is no alternative. Every British police protection unit driver does not carry a weapon. This, however, is due to the situation of vehicle extraction not materialising in the threat analysis and the fact that, unlike yourselves, there are enough men to do the job in a contact situation.

Red tape and bureacracy is not fun to deal with when you are wishing to do things a certain way. I would only recommend that you write an in-depth justification outlining recommendations for a specific system and the pro's and con's of each. The bottom line here is that of an unbalanced view of the weapon discharging whilst the Principal is sat in the rear of the vehicle.

Weapons are not ever dishcarged by themselves unless they are faulty. I presume you are not operational with faulty weapons and so the only other way is through user error. This user error can also include the 'snagging' on clothing or holsters causing the discharge itself and also from dropping the weapon. If the weapon is condition one and is shoulder holstered, the weapon will not be discharged. This is the fundamental aspect that must be educated to your command.

If the view is still not understood and agreed with then a 'vehicle weapon' should be used.

A weapon carried on the waist is still the preferred method. I was always taught this way and I have to agree. When walking with the Boss and a contact to the front presents itself, the handling of the Boss and the drawing of the handgun at the same time is a beautiful fluid motion that would not be found with a shoulder holster. Further, being right handed, that same contact would mean I am drawing the weapon by sweeping in front of the Boss. In a contact when your finger will be moved to the trigger during this move and the physical exertion in pushing the Boss out of the way is not conducive to maximum safety.

In a dual weapon use environment the hand gun remains holstered to the waist. During a contact and a stoppage occurs with your primary weapon, the 'whipping away' of the primary to draw your handgun is also one fluid motion. Again, not available with a shoulder holster.


Rich H

yoda

Many valid points have been mentioned before, but a minor point,

Surely it should be down to the individuals to find what is more comfortable/suitable for then to perform there tasks.

upcheckonetwo

I have a springloaded PWL holster from the mid 80s... not my holster of choice! but if you contact them im sure they will build a holster to suit your needs

Grayjay

Rich H -

Once again Rich thanks for your comprehensive reply. It sounds like you have a broad experience of CP and I'm grateful for your opinions.

Your comment that waist carry is the preferrred method certainly reflects my own opinion, it's what I have used and what I am used to. The times I have trained with alternate carry I've found that in a contact muscle memory sends my hand to my hip regardless. As mentioned any change requires thorough training.

In regard to our use of two man teams I can only reiterate that we operate predominately with Low threat situations. Our day to day clients will get dropped off by their official vehicle at a location where we are already on site. We will have conducted a recce and identified safe rooms, alternate exits etc. Our own vehicle will be used to evacuate the P in the event we cannot get him to a safe room or their own vehicle. As stated before with a two man team the overiding skill required is flexibility.

These are our day to day clients. Where the threat level is higher, the man power is raised accordingly and the use of dedicated drivers and CAT teams employed, more akin to what you described.

The process of report writing to satisfy the bureaucrats has probably become as intrinsic a skill for coppers as watching your partners back, it's sad when interdepartmental pissing contests take precedent over doing the job.

I guess the grass is always greener.


Edelweiss -

It looks close but I'm not sure that it will take a fitted tac light. Who is the supplier?

Thanks.


Yoda -

I agree, but working within a police department it comes back to the department being culpable at the end of the day. Can they stand up in front of the Coroner and say that the equipment was approved and suitable to task? Was sufficient training conducted? Why was that particular unit chosen over another? etc etc. I guess the difference is that in the private sector you may be standing in front of the coroner alone (or even still, working in a country where there is no such thing as a coroners court!).

But as they say, better to be tried by twelve....

Thanks for your thoughts.


Upcheckonetwo -

I've just had a look at their website, some nice looking gear. They don't show exactly what we were looking for (damn tac light again) but I'll send them a mail and see what they can do. Might be a little pricey though....

Thanks

yoda

Sorry Grayjay did not realise that it was for standard issue whithin a police departement.

To much politics and issues whithin procurement and the guys on the ground.

Cheers