CP and RST Pay Scales/ New Rates proposed.

praetorian550

I honestly support the theory but the real world will I fear doom it to failure.

One blindingly obvious point is the clients wont like it 'union' is a non work getter im afraid.

If it works sign me up brother

shakespeare

I agree that the mention of "union" is off putting for Clients. But in really all the Client will see is that the Companies charges have increased. They will ask why? and will be informed that the charges have increased across the industry to a minimum level due to new regulation. Of course the Clients wont like it, niether did the diving companies, but they passed on the charges to the Clients i.e. BP etc and that was that. BP couldn't suddenly say "Right, we're not paying...." as other companies were in the same predicament. A UK Standard is more of an appropiate phrase... "The minimum charge for a UK Registered close protection officer is £x and this is set by UK regulation" will become a common quotation Clients will see on their invoices.

praetorian550

Shaeks

again theory good- even outstanding --realworld im afraid includes the big companies who will never sign up to it and the famous 'British disease' as the Yanks call it of every walter business carding clients to become the next big thing.

I really do agree with the theory but hands up im sceptical about it ever being succesful.
As has been said before you have some great posts and this is one is up there.
Perhaps im just a bitter and twisted operator who has seen the good guys come and go because of the cowboys and undercutters.

really do wish the whole thing well brother secretary

mickworldwide

Union sounds like a good idea in principle but as stated others have tried and failed ... I for one am definitely behind any attempt to regulate the industry, training and professional standards, however I do see some potentially fatal flaws:

Reasons:
What recourse do we have in event of clients failing to fall into line??? We cant go on strike, we don't have them over the proverbial barrel in the same way as other trade unions do as the client can choose to employ the services of an overseas/ other EU based team. Therefore the current regulation regarding outside CP teams would need to close that door to enable this to be a reality.

Training /Security providers can never agree and hence it would only take a handful to not fall into line and they would still be able to accept the lower wages and scupper the whole deal. I will agree that if the majority of Uk CPOs joined the union that would add a good pressure group ... but I doubt that all will join , especially those who cannot gain work... this opportunity to be employed for any rates would be too great a draw. 'half a loaf is better than no loaf' sort of attitude

Unfortunately we live in a market environment and as such the contracts and clients will always be open to undercutting... this was always the case even in the Utopian days of 2000, companies always undercut and hence they always shall.

The drop in wages in the HE areas was not down to a flooding of Uk CPOs but more down to the Security Providers sourcing cheaper manning elsewhere, Fiji, Nepal , Sri Lanka, Colombia, Ecuador etc... UK / Expat Psd member equals around 650 USD per day as opposed to these guys getting about 2000 per month. Contract prices fell, LNs had to be included in tasks for some contracts dropping manning levels further and hence suddenly we are all suffering.... a UK based union will not change this and to be honest with the armed forces being paid shite even 150 a day is better pay than they are getting currently, so the draw will still be there for forces leavers.

Outting poor providers is a good option, however how does that criteria get set and who is the regulator for that??

I have yet to see any training company guarantee work with the exception of CRG... who decides if the training provided is up to task.... isnt that what the sia and accreditation bodies are attempting to do?? One mans meat is another's poison and what I may think is a ropey drill, you might think is squared away and vice versa.

I disagree with anyone being asked to work for free, that is not a good practice in anyones Cv or experience, whilst I applaud those who think it is their best way forward , I have not and would not ever follow suit... fair wage for a fair days work. Whilst I don't like the UK Industry at the moment , I cant see a realistic way of changing it ... we were the authors of our own predicament in my opinion...

It is more a country wide problem than an industry one...

Armed forces were for one of the first times doing a similar job to PSD members, who appeared to have better kit in some cases, less regulation, more spare time, more leave and far far better pay.... and they ran around larging it and boasting about it ... no wonder others still in the Mil couldn't wait to get out and sign up... Until the Mil are on better wages and conditions we are simply not going to be able to stem the flood.

The SIA have created a minimum standard that is way short of the true skills involved for the job... therefore almost any Tom or Tombelina has the right to attend , pass and carry an SIA front line CP badge... making them credible and legal in the eyes of the client and the current legislation.... that is what pushed the wages down... no offense to anyone intended in the next comment , but if you get a security guard on Tesco getting 40 quid a day , who suddenly gets offered 100 .... point made.... the problem is that these guys will continue to accept this as it is always better than the Tesco wage....

Would love to see this take off .... but doubt that it would unfortunately....

andynorris

mate..! i haven't got time to go on and on - but you're on the ball...!!!! nice one.

andy.

Rich H

Shakes,

This is indeed an interesting thought and one I would certainly back.

However, Close Protection is a form of insurance no matter which way you look at it. Diving and all other contractural work is being paid for a specific result to a given task. You can physically see what you are getting for your money. The 'Return of Investment' is viewed as that - a return. Security is viewed as a necessary evil, one that is viewed as an expense as opposed to any 'ROI'. To that end and as a direct result I fear that a 'Trade Union' of sorts will not receive the legal clout one would hope as the 'customer', (Client/ Principal), cannot see a physical return of their investment other than someone standing next to them.

The process over the past few years to this industry has been one of travestation. the sia has completely destroyed any hope of the average civvi to gain a strong reputation to compete for the better employment against his military counterparts. A bums on seats work ethics still very much exists with many CP providers out there and some training orgainsations fair no better. As long as this debacle exists then the wages will entirely be affected by unscrupulous companies coupled by the ever keen 'civvi'.

We don't get paid for what we do, we get paid for what may have to do and when that time comes we will never be paid enough...

Rich H

Carl Dowd

Shakes I do not mean to be a kill joy here because you have obviously had a lot of support for this idea albeit mostly ex-military perhaps...and quite frankly with little time left in this industry I do not have a particular opinion on this matter...

But the one thing I do know is commerciality and having served the OIL industry since 1992, I think it incumbent upon me to point out that because some of your remarks are directed at a section of the security industry that works or serves the Oil Sector there is going to have to be a serious thought process on this issue.

Do you really think that this industry would have grown as fast and as large as it has without Oil?

Certainly in southern Iraq most if not all clients were Oil or Energy related.

And let me tell you Bro... from experience, the OIL Industry does not like unions.

I would also point out that many heads of security companies are ex-military and most likely ranking officers who possess little or no experience of dealing with Unions or the issues they raise...

Trust me mate...they are going to take the easy way out by covertly and quietly selecting those individuals who perhaps are non union members...

Now no lectures please guys on union rights, membership or the Law...I've studied it as a business owner and fully understand it.

"For every action there is a consequence"

But you see there is the 'Ways and Means ACT' which is not to hard for companies to follow or adopt.

Many clients call the shots in this industry now, in the same way as the Government has undoubtedly told leading security companies...'Support our cause with the sia or, you do not receive Government contracts'

So what do you really think that the Oil industry is going to say?

Good luck with it guys anyway...and I look forward to seeing the consequences of the action.

shakespeare

Thanks for your post bro and I fully understand where you are coming from.

This issue is being addressed as we speak and I will post the letters from a major Union next week. All I can say for now is yes, the subcontractors did call the shots with the Oil companies, and these Unions are now about to call the shots in the CP game.

This issue will be dealt with and we will see a change within the next year. All I can say is this does not involve "strike" action and all that crap which of course would not work, but a direct approach through a member/s of parliment and a new security working regulation. Like I said before, company profit will not suffer, the Clients will HAVE to pay more and the operators will receive the benefits. It is a win win situation for employers and employees, and the Client WILL fit the bill. He/She will be unable to recruit "overseas" cheap labour as this would be dealt with swiftly.

Carl Dowd

Shakes you seem to be directing a little bit of faith here to our illustrious parliament...something to consider?

Iain McCartney MP...former industry minister who in fact, in just one year created 3200 regulations for business and commerce...

What does he do now apart from milking the gravy train along with the rest?

He sits on a board of Directors for an ENERGY company receiving in the region of £110,00 a year...

And.. we need MORE regulation in this industry?

mmh...

But as I have said...good luck and I trust that it all works out for those involved.