Unprepaired DS...

littlewoman · 22-10-2008, 11:25 AM

I don't think Drinks01 was asking what could be done to restrain people or how to get training. He is questioning why something that is vital to our safety isn't on the course. Its not that he's saying that he can't defend himself, but that he may arrive to work a venue with 1000 punters and 10 DS and be the only one that knows how to defend themselves and if it kicks off the other 9 either run and hide or stand there looking stupid.

I believe it is not on the course because the sia did not listen to DS and did listen to people that run Conflict Management courses that told them that everyone can be talked down. Also that the SIA felt that if they endorse certain techniques and someone gets hurt as a result of those techniques then the SIA might get sued.

Floatingmetal makes a good point about increasing the chances of being sued if you are trained. If you have training and you have learnt techniques to use in that circumstance and then don't use them you will have to have a good reason why.
Some course providers, Maybo being one, will tell you that their course trains you to deal with all circumstances without harming the person. This is rubbish. However if you do the Maybo course and injure someone because you found their techniques weren't working and resorted to something else, the prosecution will question what training you had in court. You will be asked to explain why you didn't use the Maybo tachniques. You will say they don't work for that sort of situation. Do you think Maybo are going to come to court and say "He's quite right, although we tell people that our course covers every circumstance and market it on that basis, actually it doesn't really". Now maybe I'm misjudging them and maybe in the 15 months since I talked to them they have realised that there course isn't that good. But this is the risk you take of doing a specific course if it markets itself as something that covers everything you need to know.

The safety of DS is being put at risk by the amount of people coming in to the job without any physical training but also by low staffing levels at some venues. Both need to be addressed but I can't see any government enough guts to sanction training DS how to do their jobs effectively.

James Mc · 22-10-2008, 11:27 AM

Hello Mate

We decided a long time ago to include breakaway training & C&R in our DS course. We do it as part of the course becouse no matter how much conflict management you do, if it's going to go pearshaped, it does & quickly.

Again it's the sia & governing bodies not really looking in depth into what is required to do the job & ensure people's safety. They got the majority of the criminal element out of the DS, now they need to re-address the deficencies in training.

It is yet another case of good training providers being able to think outside the box and provide what is needed.

Point to note though, the use of reasonable force will & can only be decided by a court, no Police Officer can say it was reasonable force, if some oxygen thief you've ejected complains about you and wants charges pressed for excessive force.

James Mc

jmaccauley · 22-10-2008, 12:36 PM

I guess my long winded essay doesn't apply inthe UK.

Jerry

Drinks01 · 23-10-2008, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kate

I think alot of companies are afraid to run control and restraint courses now to be honest, it seems to be a question of liability. Its not a question of should the door supervisor be trained in effective techniques but a question of liability if their staff actually use them. As far as I am aware, with the exception of the Maybo Physical Intervention course, there is no accredited and recognised control and restraint course out there, and my knowledge on this is a little dated, things may have changed and i apologise if i am wrong. As above, the term justifiable reasonable force floats around hanging over all security operatives head like a lead weight and not many private security companies are willing to put themselves on the line in that manner by attaching themselves to an urecognised course even if it is in the best interest of their staff. I feel it all comes down to the licence, getting the license is easy (yes i know the SIA are a pain and it takes forever), keeping the license is a different matter!

I agree, i think there should be some type of insurance to protect DS so they feel as through they can use force.

valleyboy · 23-10-2008, 11:41 PM

I agree with Sinx9 I did a Council Course before the birth of sia and it was full hands on stuff from the trainer.
I believe a D/S should be able to talk a situation down if at all possible but on the other hand should have some kind of hands on training under his/her belt for when the brown stuff does hit the fan, different tools for diferent jobs im afraid.
The sia course should have some kind of c/r built into hit even if its only the basic stuff.

VICTORMACE · 24-10-2008, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmaccauley

we in the us law enforcement arena, have seen the use of force criteria evolve quite a bit over the years. Obviously, every successful lawsuit brings about the change/restriction. 20 years ago we a 6 level use of force continuum, it was designed to simply say, "if they do this, you can meet or exceed that level by 1."then it developed, completely by mutation apparently, into about 18 subsets. This of course led to more lawsuits. Finally, the courts held that officers who were in dynamic, fast evolving situations couldn't possibly determine the appropriate level of resistance nor decide what 1 level above would be. Still, the agencies held onto it, fearing liability.

Now, more and more courts are allowing officers to base their response on the "totality" of the circumstances. This was meant to include size , weight, age, skill level of aggressor, weapons present, bystanders or confedrates, etc.. This at least gives the officer a fighting chance on the street as well as in the courtroom.

As for training, a recognized term has emerged in defending an officers actions. It's "untrained, but justified." this is explained by the above totality of circumstances and level of training/resources available at the moment.

It has put a lot of so-called training "systems" out of business and rightly so. These companies have a vested interest in you only doing so-called "approved" techniques in the heat of battle. Managers like the idea because they can push the liability off on the trainers, but the guys who need the training need to think of themselves first. That most often means seeking individual training that suits one, not everyone.

Jerry

oh if only this applied here!!!!!!!!! Lol:d

RTS · 03-11-2008, 10:44 AM

Hi all I am a fully accredited physical restraint trainer, accredited by the National Federation for Personal Safety (NFPS Ltd) who have designed and developed Btec level 2 awards in physical restraint which unlike other courses on the market start with non harmful methods and work up to more restrictive holds including wrist locks. The training has undergone a full legal audit by a Barrister at law to ensure it is legally accurate. As a licensed centre for NFPS Ltd I can deliver btec awards as well as tailor made courses which will include law and legislation, H&S, Risks surrounding restraint, effects of drugs and alcohol, edged weapon awareness, physical restraint techniques, Breakaway & close quarter personal protection techniques as well as dynamic training scenarios. I really feel firstly the sia should make this part of the course, or Employers should be paying for their staff to do this training. If there are any CP, DS, SG training providers who would like to offer this as a add on to their SIA training courses please contact me.

Keith Butchard
response-training@tiscali.co.uk
Response Training Services

mjay · 04-11-2008, 06:56 PM

The aim of the sia is to take the nuckle draggers out of the industry, and as you said there is no physical intervention on the course this in its self should answer your question- an SIA badge and a job as a door supervisor is not a permit to throw your weight and fists around which we all know has been done by DS in the past. It is up to the individual to further their training in this feild and enroll on a course which teaches them legal restraint off their own bat. No matter what security field you are working in i believe you should not stop at a basic SIA course but you should strive to gain as many relevant skills as possible thus making you more professionable employanle and indespensible.

dannyboy489 · 04-11-2008, 08:01 PM

This all skirts around the area of Continuous Personal Developement (CPD). The larger companies do it but for smaller ones - myself included - it's a bit of a problem. I'd love to invest in all my guys with C+R courses and 4 day FAAW quals drugs awareness etc but the practicalities are that for a small company the cost can be too prohibitive. Especially with the high turnover of staff you can sometimes experience.

You can handpick your best/most loyal/most reliable guys and make the investment but that can sometimes just make the gulf even more noticeable.

Individuals need to be prepared to pay some of their hard earned cash to improve their own knowledge and prospects. it seems all you CP operators out there are prepared to do it but due to the relatively small number of fulltime/professional doormen (not as in questioning peoples professionalism just defining it as a career) it seems as though prople don't take the need for CPD or refresher training seriously.

As I said it's nice to help the guys where possible, plus it looks good to clients if all your guys are highly qualified but I genuinely believe people have to take responsibility for themselves. At least until there is a full time nationally recognised framework. (Anyone remember the RSP?)

dannyboy489 · 04-11-2008, 11:41 PM

After a bit of trawling I found this press release from last year but nothing on the SfS website anymore and the RSP website no longer exists.

http://www.skillsforsecurity.org.uk/pressreleases/29.05.07%20-%20The%20Register%20of%20Security%20Professionals% 20goes%20live%20_2_.pdf

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Unprepaired DS...

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