Garda Armed Unit

armedblagger · 10-09-2008, 10:22 PM

Fluffy, get with the program man! PSNI are now rolling out ARV crews to bridge the gap between response armed policing and armed response policing! The idea being the ARVs will add an additional element to the toolbox of the response officer, i.e, less lethal options. Or if the wheel comes off, trained tactical officers with long arms, routinely patrolling 24/7, as do ARVs everywhere else in the UK.

fluffy · 11-09-2008, 07:09 AM

Armed blagger ,RUC officers(male and female) were all trained in the use of side arms(ruger/glock) and longs (g3/mp5 and prior to those smg, m1 carbine,mini ruger,slr) ,the Divisonal Mobile Support Units now TSG'S provide addiontal support to local station along with continuos mil support.So to me every armoured sierra/hotspur was a ARV.
Having worked in support of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and then the PSNI for 17 1/2 years which involved working in conjuction with local station /DMSU /TSG/HMSU/SSU I can only see the deployment of ARV'S as a waste of tax payers money when all PSNI officers are armed.The use of non lethal weapons?? just look what happened when cs spray was issued ,Sinn Fein lobbied against and they still lobbie to get the force disarmed of its fire power ,
Whilst not an authourity on the PSNI's present tatics and training I do believe that PSNI recruits are no longer trained in the use of longs,frg's,anti ambush drills,the later I think if they are no longer trained in should restart asap after a police foot patrol came under fire in Lisnaskea a few weeks ago .I stand to be corrected of course.
To me its sounds like Mr.Ord is trying to impliment mainland police tatics in Ulster,something that will never work.
In regards to the SSU winning the SWAT compition ,I have several friends who served with me in the military who are members of this unit and the SSU always were held in high regard as good operators by us.
To summerise ,I think the concept of ARV'S should remain on the mainland ,it would be cheaper to train officers in the non lethal weapons and make them standard issue to all patrols.The cost of ARV'S could be used to put more cons on the ground to reassure the public as in some areas due to the peace process and closure of stations means no policing at all, terrs roam free.

ynwa · 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluffy

Armed blagger ,RUC officers(male and female) were all trained in the use of side arms(ruger/glock) and longs (g3/mp5 and prior to those smg, m1 carbine,mini ruger,slr) ,the Divisonal Mobile Support Units now TSG'S provide addiontal support to local station along with continuos mil support.So to me every armoured sierra/hotspur was a ARV.
Having worked in support of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and then the PSNI for 17 1/2 years which involved working in conjuction with local station /DMSU /TSG/HMSU/SSU I can only see the deployment of ARV'S as a waste of tax payers money when all PSNI officers are armed.The use of non lethal weapons?? just look what happened when cs spray was issued ,Sinn Fein lobbied against and they still lobbie to get the force disarmed of its fire power ,
Whilst not an authourity on the PSNI's present tatics and training I do believe that PSNI recruits are no longer trained in the use of longs,frg's,anti ambush drills,the later I think if they are no longer trained in should restart asap after a police foot patrol came under fire in Lisnaskea a few weeks ago .I stand to be corrected of course.
To me its sounds like Mr.Ord is trying to impliment mainland police tatics in Ulster,something that will never work.
In regards to the SSU winning the SWAT compition ,I have several friends who served with me in the military who are members of this unit and the SSU always were held in high regard as good operators by us.
To summerise ,I think the concept of ARV'S should remain on the mainland ,it would be cheaper to train officers in the non lethal weapons and make them standard issue to all patrols.The cost of ARV'S could be used to put more cons on the ground to reassure the public as in some areas due to the peace process and closure of stations means no policing at all, terrs roam free.

Fluffy,

i know the training that all recruits go into. I agree with you that it would seem like a waste, but on seeing the recruits who should not even be given a driving card, never mind a glock 17, i have to disagree with you that the ARV's are a waste. Some of today's response officer's cannot be trusted when faced to deal with an armed incident, and then to have to wait for an SFO team to come out.

When you say to blanket train everyone with basic tactics (they do get limited training in anti ambush drills etc etc) i agree with you. But only in so far as to give them an awareness of these drills. Not to deal with armed incidents. The PPW is not there for tactical deployment, it's there for an Article 2 issue. In the RUC days, you could get away with it, as the entry level was so much higher, and the depot was alot harder (and military based) to get through. Not in today's garnerville depot where the outside world is seen as being pink and fluffy. Alot of today's police officers are not as tactically aware, not do they want to be as you were when you joined. Alot are career minded, who want to sit in an office all day. With that in mind you cannot, trust them with dealing with an armed incident. And that is what you would force upon them.

With the introduction of the ARV's you are looking for applicants who want the job, not in the scenario above who have the armed incident thrust upon them. It is a stringent application process, that you have to pass. Then if succesful, you have to pass a Driving Course and then an AFO course. I'm not saying the ARV's will be the mut's nut's, but they will be better equipped to deal with armed incident's than your normal response officer, or TSG officer for that matter.

I've heard horror stories where the TSG (who you'll be aware have more training than normal response) have said they have a containment on a house, and all they have is a Tangi at the bottom of the street with kids playing outside the subject house. I have a lot of respect for those in the unit, but you need a specialised unit to deal with spontaneous incidents, due to the HMSU response time.

And to suggest training all response officer's up. It's not feasible mate. The cost would be immense to give them the training that the AFO's get. And you could not just train a select few, as you know folk would have grievances against Sgt's for not being selected. But there are other issues with this, mainly, a trained response officer, would have to be able to drop what he is at to go deal with a spontaneous firearms incident. What if he is at a *censored**censored**censored**censored*? burgulary? Mid interview? It's not practical.

Also, skill retention would be a problem. AFO's get training days given to them to train tactics, reclassification in weapons etc. How can a response officer get time to do that? They are under too much pressure as it is with sections being depleted and paperwork increasing.

Also, how many officers just out of the depot have failed the Glock shoot in the past number of years? Through inaccuracy or weapon handling? Would i want to then let that person loose with an MP5, never mind the G 36 that the ARV's will get.

No harm mate, but i would not want one of these people in my car on route to an armed incident, when i know they will at some point get their glock out.

The ARV's will bridge the gap between normal response / sector policing and the HMSU.

When you mentioned about having more Police officers on the ground, mate the ARV's will tactically patrol according to intelligence. They won't be holed up in stations. So the the same number of POlice officer's will be on the ground.

Sorry for the rant pal. But those joining now are looking for a career, and maybe not wanting to face the more violent nature of society. Even if they do, they are not capable enough. In your day (sorry - i'm not callling you old!!!) folk joined and knew what they were going to face straight away.

My hat is off to you for not only joining all those years ago, but for comming through it.

jcrymer · 12-09-2008, 09:08 PM

Good info from all. I had heard about the PSNI ARVs from an officer I supervised once at the range, he was getting a little practice in hoping to join.

Haven't heard anything in the media yet about them, I'm sure there will be a storm from one side of the assembly (of course there are no sides, its one big happy family!) when they deply.

There is already a fuss about the trial of the Tazer. BBC NEWS | Northern Ireland | Court challenge to PSNI taser use You would have though anything would be prefered to a 9mm, but no alas.

ynwa, you seem to know a lot, are they going to be using any special vehicles or just the usual assortment of saloon cars, 4x4s ? Any new unform to make them stand out or just the same as the TSGs? Sticking to the G17 as the side arm?

Just curious as I'm sure they will be in the local area sooner or later

armedblagger · 12-09-2008, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ynwa

But those joining now are looking for a career, and maybe not wanting to face the more violent nature of society. Even if they do, they are not capable enough. In your day (sorry - i'm not callling you old!!!) folk joined and knew what they were going to face straight away.

Nonsense. The PSNI is no different from any other police service as regards recruits. The policies there are changing to reflect a perceived pink and fluffy society, as they have in the rest of the UK and indeed in the Republic. To blanket tar all new recruits as being 'incapable' is rubbish. Your ARV crews will come from your 'incapable' recruits. Good and bad, always has been, always will be. I've worked with more than a few spanners over the years, people I wouldn't trust with a sharpened pencil, but I don't imagine the RUC experience was any different. No matter what your recruitment criteria is there will always be the numptys on any team, on every division.

As regards looking for a career? What's wrong with that? What were the old school RUC bods looking for? A week of getting shot at and petrol bombed? Catch yerself on.

ynwa · 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armedblagger

Nonsense. The PSNI is no different from any other police service as regards recruits. The policies there are changing to reflect a perceived pink and fluffy society, as they have in the rest of the UK and indeed in the Republic. To blanket tar all new recruits as being 'incapable' is rubbish. Your ARV crews will come from your 'incapable' recruits. Good and bad, always has been, always will be. I've worked with more than a few spanners over the years, people I wouldn't trust with a sharpened pencil, but I don't imagine the RUC experience was any different. No matter what your recruitment criteria is there will always be the numptys on any team, on every division.

As regards looking for a career? What's wrong with that? What were the old school RUC bods looking for? A week of getting shot at and petrol bombed? Catch yerself on.

armedblagger,

the point i was trying to get across, (rather unsuccessfully i might add from your post) is that during the 70's and early 80's, being a member of the RUC was one of the most dangerous jobs in law enforcement in the world. I believe it may have been 2nd only to Colombia. those joining then knew the risks were so much greater than today.

I never blanketed all new recruits. My god i'm not that long in.......

As regards to looking for a career, my point is that there are more looking for office jobs within the Police now than there were in Fluffy's time of joining. Again, i meant this in the context of the conversation i was having with Fluffy. Simply in response to the training up of every Police Officer in firearms tactics. Being an armed force, we get to see everyone carrying a gun. And you get to stand beside those on the range. and you hear from colleagues about their stories of folk on the range during classifacaion and re-training. The handling stories, acuracy, my god the actions of some folk during the basic tactics phase was scary..(gun in the air running away from the target and firing, is not my idea of a good recruit...by the way i'm serious on that one.)

I was not saying that today's recruits are numpties. I was implying that it is unrealistic to train everyone up to the staard that Fluffy wanted. and in trying to explain that i was suggesting that it the recruits joinging in his day were different. Due to the risk being so much higher.

Don't get me wrong the risk today is high. 5 murder attempts on Police in the last year off duty. This makes the job very close to home. But that pales in comparison to what it was like in the 70's, 80's and early 90's.

One other small thing. The PSNI is different from every other UK force in recruits for one thing. They have to pass a 2 week firearms assessment if they are to be allowed on the street. If they fail this 3-4 times they get binned now. Thats a minor difference.

If my earlier post didn't reflect this. I apologise. But what i said, or meant to say was not nonsense at all. And to keep the topic friendly, i'd suggest not telling someone to catch themselves on especially when theyre making a point that is valid.

armedblagger · 13-09-2008, 09:36 AM

Thanks for the clarification. Your post now reads very differently from your original where it simply looked like another "the recruits of today are all rubbish in comparison to my day" comment. So you can understand my earlier tone.

Ultimately a society gets the police force that it deserves no?

On account of the above, no need to catch yourself on!

ynwa · 13-09-2008, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by armedblagger

Thanks for the clarification. Your post now reads very differently from your original where it simply looked like another "the recruits of today are all rubbish in comparison to my day" comment. So you can understand my earlier tone.

Ultimately a society gets the police force that it deserves no?

On account of the above, no need to catch yourself on!

cheers man.

i can't say "my day" as i joined in "this day."

If you know what i mean.

JcRymer,

Sorry for not replying sooner. The cars haven't been decided yet...was passat estates, but now not too sure.

Primary weapon wll be the G 36 with the glock 17 as secondary. Hope this helps.

Dazza445 · 19-09-2008, 09:26 PM

PSNI ARV crews have been training at Gravesend doing the 19 course... Just because you're armed, doesn't mean you're ARV.. The Met have 4 tiers of AFO... with the basic AFO level having different bespoke training for the different roles (CO6, SCD7, SCD11)