Surveillance Course Advice-cheers

[jasonjames]

Thanks again mate. iI tried to send a PM and cant until I have more posts. I dont have to decide just yet. Its harder than I thought , as the trainer I decide on, may determine whether my CV gets a look in or not.
I will message you at some point to get your opinion on courses. cheers

[Edelweiss Tactical]

Jason

Our associate company ISS Training Ltd. run by Mr Peter Jenkins offer a wide variety of courses, also Im sure if you were to give him a ring he will happily answer alot of your questions and advice on future career prospects.
Best Regards

[nmc]

Some excellent advice and guidance on this forum BUT can anyone actually tell me or indeed show US when they last heard of an advert for a BTEC LEVEL 3 Qualified Surveillance Operative?

Just wondering?

Please post the advert for all to see!

[isstraining]

As you asked,..

Recent Advertisements for Surveillance Operators from Various Forums

Minimal Risk Ltd

Surveillance Operatives: UK.Location: UK / Europe Position: Surveillance Operator Salary:£195 per day + expenses Posted: 22 February 2008Type: Contract Ref:323

Our client is seeking to engage a Small Team of Surveillance Operatives to work with their Corporate Security Department on a routine and regular basis.

Applicants must have formal Surveillance Training and Experience. If you wish to be considered please apply online and we will contact all applicants in due course.

Qualifications: Military, Police or Formal qualifications such as the ISS/BTEC Courses.


ABI Forum

Dear colleagues

We have a Surveillance requirement in the above area for Friday and Saturday
this week. We require a 2 person team that MUST have a covert van and covert camera kit.

If you have the required equipment and are available PLEASE EMAIL only with your cost, availability and experience/training. Our teams our fully committed, and only people with professional training will be accepted, so if you don't have training please do not apply.

Look forward to hearing from you.


UKPIN Forum

Good Morning. I require a female, youngish if possible for a Surveillance in Manchester on Saturday. Operative must be Surveillance trained. Sensible offers only to:-


ABI, UKPIN, WAPI Forums

Colleagues,

I have need to build a database of Close Protection operatives for
future assignments. Also drivers with executive vehicles are of
interest.

Obviously you must be licensed or license pending. It is important
that operatives are Surveillance trained and preferably with
some counter Surveillance experience.

Send brief details by email only please no CV's.

Not all of the postings include the phrase 'BTEC' but I would presume any applicant would have to show the advertiser proof of such training and a BTEC Certificate is proof.

Peter Jenkins
ISS Training Ltd

[nmc]

I think qualifications are going to play a bigger and bigger part in our industry - that goes without saying and as ISS Training have pointed out here there are a few adverts asking for people with recognised qualifications and indeed even a BTEC Level 3 in 1 case.

With CP work within the UK this is now the norm - my own opinion though is that we have not set the bar high enough with this BTEC Level 3 as the CP market for example has become swamped with every man and his dog possesing a badge. Might this happen with other areas of the security industry? Does anybody ever fail a BTEC Level 3? Maybe, but i'd guess not too many which might make employers think that certain quals aren't worth too much and surely this is not what we want?

Does a BTEC qualification mean more time in the classroom talking about it and less time in the field carrying out skills and drills?

Perhaps we are just a lot cleverer than past generations...............

Different employers will accept different qualificartions - some may just want experience although no doubt with the passage of time people will be forced to employ those with a tick in the box rather than an excellent work history. A combination of both is surely the best. What comes 1st? The chicken or the egg?

Everybody should have the opportunity to progress in their given field but my concern is that this has not been thought through properly by the powers that be.

[andy_m]

NMC you make a valid point, do people fail courses? Techically I guess you could have someone 4'2" and 18 stone pass a course, but realistically that person will never get work, who is in the wrong here, the candidate for having unrealistic expectations or the staff running the course for being honest with the candidate. I suppose the flip side is that that candidate will apply for 20 or 30 jobs and that those prospective employers will see the standard of candidate that training provider is passing!

[isstraining]

Now then,

Can I mention a few points regarding the past two posts. This is a long one so please bear with it.

Employers are becoming more choosy (we know, we talent scout for a few of them) and it is those that are setting the standards every time they try to recruit. I agree that you cannot beat experience, so someone who has carried out Surveillance for the past 15 years should be more confident and well versed than someone who has just obtained a BTEC Qual’. Having said that, we have seen those who claim to have done it for a long time whose skills were horrendous.

Our particular basic training course is split 50/50 between classroom and out on the ground, it has to be – you have to cover some theory before getting in a car or putting on a radio. The advanced course is 75% out on the ground so a good and correct balance is given. Both assessments are made by completing a Student Workbook and also undergoing observed tests. If the students are not up to scratch, they do not get a pass. Half way through a course you know who is weaker in the class and they would be given more assistance if need be (just like any subject).

In these days of political correctness, whether the awarding body is NCFE, City & Guilds, Edexcel or whoever, there is no such thing as a pass or fail! Not anymore, they do not allow it. It is either ‘Passed’ or ‘Not yet passed’, which gives the learner the opportunity of re-training in order to achieve a pass. It’s all politically correct bollocks but that’s the way it has gone and its nothing to do with me.

As was mentioned, and I agree that many people may pass a BTEC level 3 who are unsuited to work in the surveillance field (for many reasons). We have had a few on our courses but having a qualification is surely better than not having one when it comes to touting for work.

Potential Employer: ‘Have you had training in surveillance? No! then go away and get some. Yes you have, then come in for an interview..’ That’s when it is decided whether the person is right for the job, when he is at the interview stage. If the employer is interviewing one of our previous students, I would expect them to call me up and ask how they really got on. Nothing underhand – its called checking references.

NMC. Regarding the ‘Powers That Be’ who have not thought it out properly. Who are they, who are the powers that be, surely you can’t mean the SIA?

From the surveillance side, there are a number of purposes to the BTEC awards in surveillance. ISS developed this training in conjunction with the NCFE and Edexcel which took 20 months to complete. Prior to offering these awards, we were only able to provide our students with a certificate of attendance. We decided that this was not good enough for the students as they should at least have some form of formal recognition for the quality training that they have received.

The basic BTEC Award is of 50 hours duration (BTEC Certificate is 120hours). This time frame was decided because we wanted to provide the learner with a training course that is not too long, nor not too short. It had to cover all of the essential skills required for a student to leave the course confident and able carry out a surveillance as it happens in the real world. After the course, the student just has to get out there, practise it, and obtain more experience / confidence. The BTEC Award is proof to a potential employer or contractor the person has undergone formal training by an established provider.

As I mentioned, this Award took 20 months to complete with much tooing an froing from us and Edexcel. Edexcel wanted to make sure that the product that we were providing and they were accrediting was correct in every respect (unlike the CPO course which was rushed). The Award is also logically mapped out and linked to the National Occupational Standards of Private Investigators and close protection officers.

Each Unit and lesson is documented together with the outcomes and assessment methods, the course pack is 2 inches thick! Each student has to undergo a formal written assessment and a practical assessment otherwise he/she does not pass. The written assessment is not putting ticks in boxes, you have to actually think and provide correct written answers to show that you actually know what you have been taught.

With that in mind, the production of a BTEC Award or Certificate displays that the holder has undergone structured training, which has been scrutinised and accredited by a nationally awarding body. The training company has undergone quality assurance tests, it uses instructors who are qualified to teach and have relevant experience in those fields. The student has also had to prove they are competent in order to be awarded a pass.

What did Edexcel have to use as a benchmark to accredit the course do I hear you asking? Apart from the relevant police qualifications, they had to decide the outcomes of what the learner really needs to know within the time frame to display competency. Hence the 20 months toing and froing of amendments from their research.

I would like to think and would say to anyone out there if you are looking for a surveillance operator, ensure that they have had some formal training or the relevant experience. Let us put it this way, you advertise on the forum for 2 surveillance operators as you have a long term job coming up. You receive 5 replies: one was from a Level 1 trained policeman, one has a BTEC in surveillance, one was trained by a company who have only been running training a year and has no credible reputation, another has a CP licence but no surveillance experience and the other has no experience whatsoever. Which 2 do you interview first? Pure common sense gives you the answer.

The surveillance operator may also find himself or herself in Court giving evidence. What is the first thing that a defence barrister will ask you as he makes his first attempt to destroy your credibility as a witness? ‘So what training or qualifications in surveillance do you hold Mr English? ‘What, none!’, ‘Members of the jury, this witness has spied on my client for 3 days and he does not know what he is doing does he not? ‘It’s a bit like asking a vet to fix your leaky gas pipe..’

We have spent so much time, trouble, effort and money in setting up in what we consider a worthwhile means of proving that you have received quality training to a certain standard. We have been in business since 1990, I like to think we have got it right. We have also got it wrong on occasions but we now have the experience to give the best that we possibly can for the student.

As with all things in life, a benchmark has to be set by someone at sometime in order to progress.

If you have read all of this without nodding off, you have done well.

Peter Jenkins
ISS Training Ltd
Surveillance Training - ISS Training Limited

[80085]

Very nicely put.
Regards
lildev

[damian]

The Debate goes on ha,ha.

Firstly, I agree with both opinions expressed within the Last few threads and I can see the for and against in both cases. As a Company who is also one of the very few who provide Accredited and recognised Surveillance training I can completely see where Pete is coming from. It takes a serious amount of dedication and perseverance to Gain Accreditation wether that be from EDEXCEL OR ASET or whoever. Its all about striking that balance between Classroom and Practacal Training. We would all like to spend every houir 'out on the ground' but in order to deliver accredited training the National awarding bodies want to see EVIDENCE OF LEARNING. This is where countless hours have been spent by myself and no doubt Pete in order to create a process where A Individuals progress can be monitored, assesed, improved and evidenced in order for them to gain level 3 status.

Now as pete pointed out, ISS have been around for a long time and deliver quality training. There are also other more recent providers who can provide a equal level of quality who have gone through the same level of of hard work to Gain Accreditation and become a National Learning Centre. I think this is Good for Individuals because it now offers a choice of varied courses which can only be beneficial to the Industry and Individuals as long as they are doing it the right way.( Nobody has the Monopoly when it cOmes to SURVEILLANCE TRAINING ) up untill recently People simply have not had a choice when it comes to recognised and accredited courses.

My advice is simply use Companies who are Accredited and who have gone through the process because we are ourselves constantly assesed and we have to show that we are delivering QUALITY AT ALL TIMES. It doesn't matter if your the most experienced Operator around, if you cant teach or get the subject across in such a way that Students Understand then what is the point ?. Again this is where accredited training comes in because each unit / subject has been assesed and learning outcomes have been Identified and it is then delivered to give a student the very best chance of grasping it first time around.

AS training providers we are ultimately Teachers and wether we like it or not the processes of teaching is becoming ever more stringent. This is a good thing to the Individuals who pay for quality Courses. The fact is if you want Surveillance training then use a ACCREDITED AND RECOGNISED COURSE. You stand a greater chance of employment in the long run.

Just for interest this is a link to the latest register site for trainers and teachers. Not all providers will be aware of this but it will become compulsory to register. It needs to be done before the end of March. It is the new database for teaching and all colleges and adult Learning centres must register, Pete, Nick and anyone else, IT'S WORTH LOOKING AT GUYS.
http://www.ifl.ac.uk/services/p_wwv_page?id=140

Than you

Damian
Blue Square Global Ltd
Surveillance Training
Blue Square Global – Covert Intelligence, Bespoke Surveillance Projects, Close Protection, Risk Management, Bodyguards

[andy_m]

Peter, Damian,
I fully understand and agree with all the points you have made. My concern is this: as training providers be it Security / CP / Surveillance are you not being put in a situ