Email Tracking

[Rich H]

MrBurns,

The programme I am referring is used by the NSA and Intelligence and Law Enforcement Agencies worldwide. It CANNOT be detected. The only way to remove is to complete reformat the hard drive and reinstall the OS.


Rich H

[Mrburns]

Cannot be detected ? sorry that's not correct! The type of software you are talking about is constantly being breached by detector software. This software is designed to protect systems from the same or similar software the same people use on others.

I might add I am not talking about the homebrew stuff you find on the internet

As far as removing it yes the only sure way is to re image the pc. Its command practice to image the pc from factory and if you suspect something may be off then to use this to load to default.

[Rich H]

I would deem myself fairly competent in the use of IT but admit am no 'expert boffin'. I am merely outlining the capabilities of the programme as advertised by the programme makers themselves.

It must be said that if a Surveillance operation involves the installation of a computer programme and that target pc is owned by such an IT expert then it is an obvious assumption that the programme may either not work or if the user is suspicious, will run a programme to detect and counter.

However, for the majority of the worlwide population, this programme is at the top of the tree as far as undetectability is concerned. I have used and am still using such a programme and have not had any problems whatsoever, including after such an occasion of the target pc being sent to pc repair specialists.

It appears then, that this 'homebrew' stuff one can find on the internet is indeed effective. After all, the government agencies as previously mentioned use it!


Rich H

[Mrburns]

hi rich,

sorry what i meant was that I was not talking about the homebrew stuff. And your right to the standard person this top software is undetectable unless you have the same level of counter programs.

And i would totally agree that a computer repair company would not pick this up. Only a very competent IT security chap. And again he would have to be at the top of the tree and with the right tools.

The point I was making is that security systems are broken in the end however secure they are pitched in the sales documents. "spy" software can be detected in the same way security systems can be broken.

It's a race with one entity bringing out a tool and then another trying to combat it (actually much like the way the virus detection industry works). This is also mirrored with what people call "expolits". A weakness is found

I suppose the point I am making is saying it "CANNOT" be detected is just not correct. In the same way I could not say for certain a system I am on is 100% secure.

Interesting discussion,

Cheers

[DanK]

mr burns - I agree that all computer processes can be detected, whether in windows, linux, bsd or mac - as a process must exist in ram to be running (even when in stealth) and the program must also exist on the hard drive (even if by a stealth name) - not to mention that it is redirecting traffic via itself - providing reasonable areas of investigation. Detection of any program residing in memory or the hard disk, simply requires a sample signature of the said program to be put into the database of file/process scanners such as virus scanners.

...however, as both you and Rich have said, it's unlikely to be picked up by the common office user - and therefore homebrew is more than adequate.

Technicalities aside, and returning to mts's point on legality...

...use of this type of software (for a user other than yourself) in the UK and to some extent europe can be illegal, especially if your reason is private cp/surveillance work, rather than criminal investigation/prevention (which also requires guidance and qualification).

Monitoring of email/chat involves the interception of communications. In the UK, RIPA (Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000) makes it an offence to do this on a private telecommunications network, as well as a public one.

However, interception is lawful if done in accordance with the Telecommunications (Lawful Business)(Interception of Communications) Regulations 2000 - which has specific guidelines - primarily for crime prevention/detection.

Additional breaches of the Human Rights Act 1998 and the Data Protection Act 1998 also need to be considered.

Dan

[Rich H]

Quote "Technicalities aside, and returning to mts's point on legality...

...use of this type of software (for a user other than yourself) in the UK and to some extent europe can be illegal, especially if your reason is private CP/Surveillance work, rather than criminal investigation/prevention (which also requires guidance and qualification).

Monitoring of email/chat involves the interception of communications. In the UK, RIPA (Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000) makes it an offence to do this on a private telecommunications network, as well as a public one.

However, interception is lawful if done in accordance with the Telecommunications (Lawful Business)(Interception of Communications) Regulations 2000 - which has specific guidelines - primarily for crime prevention/detection.

Additional breaches of the Human Rights Act 1998 and the Data Protection Act 1998 also need to be considered.

Dan"


Agreed, but lets be realistic. I will do what I need to do to get results. End of. The rule of thumb to be applied is 'Do what you like so long as you don't get caught'.

The same can be applied to the wearing of seat belts in CP or Surveillance work. Results is what we need when operating at the higher end of the spectrum. DPA? On paper that's great and of course I abide by it. In reality?

I will leave that up to you.


Rich H

[Mrburns]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich H Agreed, but lets be realistic. I will do what I need to do to get results. End of. The rule of thumb to be applied is 'Do what you like so long as you don't get caught'. The same can be applied to the wearing of seat belts in CP or Surveillance work. Results is what we need when operating at the higher end of the spectrum. DPA? On paper that's great and of course I abide by it. In reality? I will leave that up to you. Rich H

You cant honestly be comparing the wearing of a seatbelt to illigally gaining information form a computer system on a subject ???!!! the offences certainly carry different penalties under uk law.

I cannot disagree more strongly with your rule of thumb comment. Its complete stupidity. Bascially your a criminal if you going that route. might as well get the target and torture him to get the information. Fine if you dont get caught, that's the rule of thumb right ?

You are sounding like the type of person we get paid to protect clients from. Someone who will use any means possible for personal gain.

idiot

[Rich H]

Ha!

I just knew that post would receive that type of comment! Of course, you don't know me and if someone was to read what I wrote then you could be forgiven for what you replied with.

I am in general, a law abiding citizen. However, there will be times that I will break the speed limit and there are times I don't wear a seat belt. There are also times when I will do the 'sneakey beakey'. This is on behalf of the job and nothing further. No personal gain but purely for the mission and the achieving of results.

I don't intend to 'convert' those that like you do absolutely everything 'by the book'. What I will say is that the quality of information and the quality of accurate and timely results achieves an end result that cannot be compared to the results you would achieve.

This is the lay of the land folks. I'm pretty much at the top of the tree re CP and related 'subjects' and so the realistic view is always more important. Occasionally, drastic times require drastic measures.

Your points are noted but then again, they were to be expected. Anything that bears 'minor infringments' - I can never get excited.


Rich H

[DanK]

On a slight tangent, I should say that my above summary of illegal data gathering is restricted to being illegal in civil law and not criminal law.

Other sections of RIPA however, are a criminal offence carrying prison sentences (eg. Part III which gives law enforcement powers to force someone to decrypt encrypted data or relinquish their encryption keys.)

On the issue of intercepting communications however, the unlawful act would not involve removal of your liberty or a conviction if caught. Damages in a civil court are more appropriate.

As to the debate of how flexibile you wish to be (or not) in committing an offence to increase efficiency and effectiveness in your chosen objectives, whether personal or business orientated - I'll leave you both to debate the varying approaches of idealism vs realism together with the rights and wrongs of each.

Regards

Dan

[Mrburns]

I still don’t agree. Forgiven ? Well I don’t know you bud and all I can go on is statements that are made on a forum. As usual its pretty difficult to understand someone’s true stance over the internet.

However you still saying the result justifies the action. This seems crazy to me. I understand why you do this but there is no difference to me from getting someone and giving them a few slaps to get the information out of a target. Ok if you don’t get caught rich ?

This makes us no difference from the people we protect. I assume you get paid for the work you do. With this in mind you are breaking the law for personal gain.

Maybe its the situation I am in. If i got caught with data I am not meant to have ill be in serious shit with a lot of the work i currently do. I.e. i wont get those clients for return jobs.

I am not sure the argument of getting better intel on someone because you are being dogey is one to make ?

Dank, I am pretty sure this comes under “computer misuse act” which is a criminal offence and not restricted to civil law. Using gps trackers under someone cars for example is a civil matter but gaining unauthorised access to computer resources and data via that method is not. Please advice if I am incorrect,
I am enjoying this discussion, I am sorry I called you an idiot rich but I met lots of people who think it is ok to give someone a slap or do something outside the law because they think because of the industry gives them some kind of free ticket to do what they want. On this I base my strong reactions on this subject.

Cheers

Mr Burns